The Director's Chair Network

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well what's the matter can't you talk
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with a gun in your mouth you're not to
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prove your methods
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yeah well you're not from Chicago hello
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and welcome back and this episode is
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really uh another unique one in the
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sense that I'm talking with somebody
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that I've known for a while and I
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haven't formally podcasted with and
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we're also talking about a movie we've
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talked about already and a movie I'm
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sure we're going to talk about a lot
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more based on the feedback I've been
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getting from potential guests so I'd
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like to welcome my friend Dan to the
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show dan welcome thank you very much
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Craig this is this is an honor and and
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just a lot of fun to be discussing this
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this particular great piece of film uh
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making with you yeah so uh as you know
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on the second episode we talked uh the
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church scene from The Untouchables we
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are back in the Untouchables and we're
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going to be talking about an epic epic
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scene uh which we'll get
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to and Dan I'm glad we were able to
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finally sit here and chat because I know
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we've been sort of online friends for a
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while and we never had the opportunity
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to podcast together and this show has
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made that possible so uh definitely I'm
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really excited we were able to make that
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happen so Dan before we get too into
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things do you want to sort of just give
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paint a little picture of your DAPA
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history
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that's it's a it's it's really the
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untouchables is a really interesting
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part of that because
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prior to
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87 I had
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definitely
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seen some Depalma films but mostly they
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were just one and done i had seen Carrie
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once i had seen Dress to Kill once i had
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se I and I guess maybe Scarface was kind
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of
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in heavy rotation in cable so that was
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the one that I had probably seen the
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most but in in a lot of ways and I don't
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want to get in a whole side tangent here
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like kind of consider
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Scarface an outlier in in Dealma uh to
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some extent there are definitely some
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diplomatisms in there but that was the
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one I probably had seen the most but I
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didn't really get dressed to kill you
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know I was major into you know the the
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the 70s and ' 80s slashers at the time
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and I saw of course the you know the
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poster for Dress to Kill and I was
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looking for it and I was
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like you know it didn't quite scratch my
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itch for you know a true slasher but of
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course I've grown to love it over the
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years but um Carrie was it definitely
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cre creeped me out as a I probably saw
2:49
it pretty young and to be honest with
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you Craig it was probably the
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innate femininity of it that kind of was
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alien to me that was that made it seem a
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little I you know not that's scary kind
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of scary you know and things like that
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that yeah I not to not to slow you down
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because you're saying some great stuff
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here but I got to tell you when I
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started this podcast I hadn't seen or
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watched Carrie in a really really long
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time and I wasn't really interested in
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watching it probably for similar reasons
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i just remember not you know not feeling
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entirely comfortable with the movie and
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it's since become one of my favorite
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films and I've watched it a bunch of
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times in the last couple months just
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because we did an episode episode three
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on it yeah but yeah one thing I will say
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about Dress to Kill is you know one
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thing that that The Palm is always good
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at is like putting things on its sort of
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uh you know turning it on its head you
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know and I think like filmmakers like
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Tarantino sort of have this thing where
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like he made his slasher film and Death
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Proof and like you watch it and you're
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like well it's not a it's not a slasher
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film per se but he used that template
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and Deama's very much the same way and
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and I think I believe I said it on the
4:10
carry episode like DeAma to me seemed
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like and this is no slight against Deama
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or uh or Hitchcock but it always seemed
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to me like the Palama was like Hitchcock
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if Hitchcock was able to do everything
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he wanted to do exactly exactly i mean
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yeah i I don't think it's fair to the
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the people that say "Oh De Palma is just
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a ri you know a a Hitchcock biter his
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whole career." No because he he does
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play in the same sandbox but he but he
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does things he goes a little bit farther
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in certain ways and a little weirder in
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certain ways you know and and uh
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everything so yeah and I mean I love I
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love Hitchcock but I can say uh with
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extreme confidence that Hitchcock could
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not have made Carito's way right right
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absolutely and that's another thing that
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really draws me to DeAnma as a filmmaker
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and it's one of the things I'm really
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trying to present with this podcast is
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Deama the dude is able to
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do multiple genres and do them very well
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which you know certain filmmakers
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Spielberg for example because that's a
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lot of that's a filmmaker a lot of
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people will reference and I love
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Spielberg as well but what was
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Spielberg's big attempt at comedy 1941
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and we all know how that went right
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whereas Dama you know he he made a
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handful of legitimate you know funny you
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know successful from a filmm standpoint
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comedies right and then you know again
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it's just the the diversity of Deama's
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filmography and the other thing and it
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it might have just been coincidence or
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just wonderful happen stance but Deama
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never got pigeonholed like you make
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Scarface and then all of a sudden you're
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the Scarface guy and all you're doing is
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making gangster films or Carrie you know
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like how many Stephen King adaptations
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can you do right and that's really the
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remarkable thing about it so you kind of
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said that Untouchables really was you
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know the thing that got your attention
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with the PAMA and I believe you're a
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couple years older than me so you were
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in the workforce when that came out
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right absolutely um I'll be 55 this
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summer so in June of
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87 I was finishing my uh junior year of
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high school yes and I
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was from 1985 to 1989 i was a
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projectionist
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um usher at an AMC movie theater in
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Virginia so this was right in the middle
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of my years at the movie theater i got
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to say that's probably the best four
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years that you could have worked at a
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movie theater
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you know I'm glad to hear you say that
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because I always felt that way you know
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and it's it's a in those films that well
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the particularly the films that were
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went through our theater from those
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years if I sat down with a piece of
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paper I could pretty much within you
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know over 75% accuracy just recite all
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of the films that were released and
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especially like any of the ones that I
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actually built the prints It's like once
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you do that and have a hands-on part
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you'll never forget those those movies
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and and Untouchables was right in the
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center of that and I can tell you from
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my experience a big crowd-pleaser i mean
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multiple theaters in the We had a
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multiplex and that was showing in two
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theaters lot of sellouts stayed for like
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most of the summer
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you know things that you don't really
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see in the theaters these days you know
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no and it's also really unique in the
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sense that I would say it's
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probably not until Mission Impossible
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did De Palama really do something that
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was as crowd-pleasing and I would say
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Untouchables is even more so because
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with Mission Impossible you were
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adapting a you know sort of rebooting or
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reintroducing a TV show concept and for
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as much as that sort of series has
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turned into what it's turned into that
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first movie is a tight little spy film
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oh yeah yeah with some set pieces
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whereas I think
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here everything about the Untouchables
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is epic right the cinematography the
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score the performances amazing yes yeah
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so I I could totally see that playing
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well with audiences so was your first
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time seeing this movie like building the
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if if I remember correctly Dan knowing
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some people that have worked in theaters
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you would put the print together and you
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would wa would you watch it the night
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before yes but it would there was it was
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myself and probably three other
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uh projectionists who were trained to
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build print so I don't think that I
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built that particular one but I showed
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up every Thursday night for the uh for
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the crew watch for sure
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and you know we'd sneak a few beverages
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into because it was just us you know
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after hours and I knew nothing about
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this film going into it i didn't even
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know it was a I mean if you told me the
9:39
name Brian Dealma I would have
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recognized it but I did not associate oh
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a new DeAlma film coming out you know it
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was just we're going to watch
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Untouchables all right you know I know
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who Kevin Cosner is you know it was pre
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pre-dances with Wolves but post
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Silverado and you know um and everything
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so yeah you had to be pretty tuned in to
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know Cosner he was by no means uh I
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guess was No Way Out was No Way Out
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already out by then maybe
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i'm I'm not sure because I remember when
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I when when I was looking up this movie
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when we first talked about it I know
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that the Palama had to get advice from
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other filmmakers that had worked with
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Cosner before and they were like "Yeah
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you know this guy's got a rocket on his
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back you know you should get on you know
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before he gets too far into the
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stratosphere right?"
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And you think back of the especially of
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those years of the well he's in a
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resurgence now the first wave of Cosner
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success when he you know the whole thing
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with him showing up in the Madonna movie
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what a what a nerd you know oh yeah
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doesn't he say need or something yeah
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neato or something and uh how perfect
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for Elliot Ness you
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know a straight a straight arrow boy
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scout you know yeah so I do know that
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there's a a really really cool uh story
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around working at your theater there but
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I do want to get into the scene before
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we we get into that that story i would
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like really want to hear but we're going
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to be talking about the sort of the the
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the Canada sequence for lack of a better
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word mhm as we know this movie is more
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fiction than truth and this entire
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sequence is fiction but it's damn good
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film making and uh effective film making
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and epic film making and I would say I
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didn't count the amount of guns on
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screen and Scarface has a lot of guns in
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it but I think in terms of scope this
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might be the grandest action scene Dama
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ever did it's amazing it's it's great
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and and just I have to comment like one
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of the
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things thank god that Palma always
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has putting a good show up on the screen
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in his in his mind like you know his one
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of his first that was in the the
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documentary his documentary where he
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talked about well the way in the book
12:01
Carrie she just clutches her Yep chest
12:03
and falls that's exciting yes yeah uhhuh
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yeah yeah so he knows yeah especially
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with all the religious overtones in
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Carrie it's like how can you not go for
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that imagery exactly so to set up the
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scene a little bit Ness and his team get
12:20
wind of a deal that's going to be going
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down capone's team's going to be
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purchasing alcohol on the Canada side
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and transporting it into the United
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States so it's a cooperative effort
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between the Canadian Mounties and Ness
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and his team where they're going to bust
12:37
them uh I guess as soon as they get on
12:39
the American side right right and the
12:41
and the can the Canadians are not going
12:43
to act until they're you know signal to
12:47
and everything yeah yeah so there is one
12:50
pre sort of action moment I wanted to
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talk about and I think it's a great
12:55
Elliot Nest character moment and it's
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when the Mounty says um what knowledge
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or information is half the battle that
13:02
old G.I joe saying and uh Ness says
13:05
something to the effect of "Well forget
13:08
half the battle what about the whole
13:09
battle?" Right and I think that's a
13:13
really really good character moment
13:15
because it really sort of defines like
13:17
with Ness it's all about that end result
13:21
exactly yeah and the Connory character
13:24
you know helping him grapple with
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you know what does he say you know how
13:30
far are you willing willing to go for
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this you know end result you know does
13:35
the means just you know justify the ends
13:39
yeah yeah does the ends justify the
13:41
means i have that reversed but but Yes
13:44
yeah yeah so uh for whatever reason the
13:48
Canadians jumped the gun uh and uh they
13:52
I think they're sort of played a little
13:53
bit for laughs
13:55
oh the the bounties definitely came off
13:57
as the like sort of keystone cops of
14:00
this of this movie but then we get a a
14:03
whole sequence where Capone's team
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realizes there's an ambush in place they
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position their cars on the bridge to
14:11
create a barrier and then Ness and his
14:14
team are very focused on making sure
14:16
that nobody escapes garcia gets
14:19
dispatched garcia is one of the coolest
14:20
characters in this whole movie i can't
14:22
wait to do a real a scene where he's
14:24
really featured but it's really not his
14:27
sequence cuz he's tasked with taking out
14:29
a a car and he gets shot and this is
14:32
where we get to see the Oscar Wallace
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character played by Charles Martin Smith
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as sort of his hero moment which is so
14:39
cool cuz he's this nerdy nerdy
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accountant first of all I I've always
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huge American Graffiti fan always love
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Charles Martin Mury Starman i mean I I
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love that Depalma cast him and I love
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that he got this big moment
14:58
oh and Buddy Holly story too yeah yeah
15:00
yeah so uh it's great to see that um
15:03
sort of non uh you know action guy have
15:06
his action moment where he sees one of
15:08
his comrades shot and then once he knows
15:13
that he's okay he reacts and he get sort
15:15
of gets caught up in the moment and
15:16
there's some great gunplay and then even
15:18
some physical action where he uses the
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butt of the gun to take somebody out
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one other thing I noticed about this and
15:26
one thing you can say about sort of
15:27
technology today and we're both old
15:29
enough to remember when you watched
15:31
movies on 27in TVs on VCRs but one thing
15:35
I did notice uh with this 4K
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presentation of the movie is everybody's
15:40
riding their horses even Connory and
15:43
those little details matter and I have
15:46
no idea you know at what at what point
15:48
Deama got involved in saying
15:51
"Okay here's how much of the horse
15:53
you're going to ride Sean and then the
15:55
stunt guy will take over." But it's
15:57
clear that the four of them are riding
15:59
together and I I think the way they
16:02
approached the bridge um the composition
16:05
of that shot is great but the other
16:07
thing I really like and I've talked
16:09
about this and I'll repeat myself a lot
16:10
on this show is the geography of dama
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action sequences oh yes you're never at
16:16
a loss for where things are occurring
16:19
and it shows how important just giving a
16:23
in planning is as opposed to trying
16:25
to figure something out in the editing
16:27
room exactly you I mean even with that
16:31
wide expanse Montana standing in for
16:34
Canada border by the way yeah which is
16:36
beautiful beautiful but you still in
16:38
your mind okay the shack where they were
16:40
waiting is right down there you know you
16:42
you can you can you can still remember
16:44
where it is in terms of where they're at
16:47
you know in the in this big setting and
16:49
everything like that yeah and and that's
16:51
the great thing about DAMA action scenes
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is you're never lost and apparently
16:57
that's harder to do than than we know
17:00
because not many people do it you know i
17:02
mean a lot of times you'll just get
17:04
these close cuts and quick action and
17:06
you have no idea what the geography is
17:10
is there any particular moment in this
17:12
sort of bridge scene that you wanted to
17:13
to highlight well just to go back to and
17:16
I remember this because I when it was
17:19
playing and I didn't have any other
17:23
pressing things i would it was one of
17:25
the many films I would just stand in the
17:26
back of the of the theater to watch the
17:29
audience reactions during I mean it was
17:31
big cheers big cheers it's kind of
17:34
ironic because this is a big I mean
17:38
there's some there's some deaths and
17:39
some shooting going on but it was a it
17:41
was a big crowd-pleasing part you know
17:43
and one of the biggest
17:45
was after his hero moment Charles Martin
17:48
Murphy when he ducks down and takes
17:51
himself a swig of whiskey that was
17:53
always a big a big crowd-pleaser for
17:55
sure yeah no and and that gets back to
17:57
the sense of humor that that Deama has
17:59
right and of course that's a moment that
18:01
was written by David Mamemoth uh
18:03
actually I don't know i have no idea it
18:04
could have been an improv right right it
18:06
wouldn't put it I I wouldn't be
18:08
surprised if Mamemoth had scripted that
18:10
based on you know what I know about him
18:11
as a writer but I think the other thing
18:13
that really helps this scene is the um
18:16
Maronei score oh amazing yes i mean this
18:20
is one of those scenes and I know if you
18:22
go on on YouTube you can find like epic
18:25
movie scenes without the score and it
18:27
really shows you how important every
18:30
element is you know the visuals are
18:31
important but at the same time the sound
18:33
design and the score are equally as
18:35
important and this is a very Hollywood
18:37
score it might be the Palama's most
18:39
Hollywood score it's great and you know
18:42
they're on horseback it would not sound
18:45
out of place on an epic western or or
18:48
something like that you know yeah so I
18:51
don't know if we talked about this
18:52
offline or not but part of this sequence
18:55
we have the bridge sequence and then did
18:57
do you want to pivot and talk about the
19:00
the shacks portion of this scene well
19:03
that's what I a little bit because of
19:06
the audience reaction and that was one
19:07
of the things I was going to talk about
19:09
is that um
19:12
so some of the some of some of the
19:15
tactics that were employed um by uh by
19:20
Jimmy by by the the the hardened Chicago
19:23
cop
19:25
um even though it's gristly in a way
19:28
that was it was the laughs were huge for
19:31
that one they were not they were not
19:32
shocked by that the audiences at all
19:34
they thought it was great yeah well well
19:37
I think it's funny too because Ness is
19:39
forced to kill somebody pretty much that
19:42
uh he doesn't speak English uh no and I
19:46
don't know whether or not that's part of
19:47
the confusion or if that guy was just he
19:51
was guns blazing until he dropped am I
19:53
correct that that ended was that
19:55
supposed to be one of Capone's either
19:58
brothers or close relatives that
20:00
character oh you know I I believe you're
20:02
right yeah he might have been yeah uhhuh
20:04
right right yeah so we have a dead body
20:07
right and and it's dead well yeah and
20:10
this is like sort of akin to like you
20:12
know like what's that rule like when you
20:13
show a gun you know by the third time
20:16
you the gun's got to be used i think the
20:19
great thing about this sequence is
20:20
they're inter they're interrogating
20:22
Capone's bookkeeper right to get
20:24
information and he's not going to give
20:25
it up because he knows what kind of
20:28
person Capone is and as Jimmy is Yeah as
20:32
Juny's doing what he does I think as
20:35
viewers we jump ahead and realize what's
20:38
about to happen that he's going to use
20:40
his dead body as a prop to show this
20:42
bookkeeper that they mean business and
20:45
he's going to kill somebody in cold
20:46
blood that's already dead that's right
20:48
because the bookkeeper can't turn around
20:50
and see see what's going on be you know
20:53
what the previous thing was yeah yeah he
20:55
just hears a discussion and then he
20:57
hears a gunshot and then of course he
20:58
gives it all up
21:00
just a a a remarkable sequence in a
21:03
movie that's full of remarkable
21:05
sequences it's funny I have at least one
21:08
more recording scheduled around the
21:10
Untouchables and we're not at a loss for
21:14
scenes to talk about i know you had a
21:15
couple of scenes you suggested but I
21:18
wouldn't be surprised Dan if this ends
21:20
up being the movie that I covered the
21:24
most amount of scenes from we'll see
21:26
we'll see so you were working at the
21:29
theater in ' 87 and you said um offline
21:32
that the theater was in proximity to uh
21:35
an arena yeah so my theater was called
21:38
the AMC Coliseum 4 which was in Hampton
21:42
Virginia u in the
21:44
Tidewater um Newport News Virginia Beach
21:47
Norfolk area it's all sort of one
21:49
megalopouloolis uh connected by bridges
21:52
and waterways and and plenty of military
21:55
bases etc and the coliseum is a pretty
21:58
famous venue i I know I have grateful
22:02
Yeah i have quite a few dead bootlegs
22:04
exactly exactly and speaking that was a
22:07
sweet span of years for the dead also
22:11
that I mean not to get into it but that
22:13
spring 89
22:15
um warlocks 89 into 90 I mean right up
22:19
till until Brent died i mean right man
22:22
they were they were cooking there's some
22:23
great great Yep i was those and the and
22:27
the Washington DC RFK ones as well oh
22:30
wow is that the one that's on um uh that
22:34
big DVD set they put out i think so yeah
22:37
like recently i have been listening to
22:39
it re recently so Oh my goodness that's
22:41
offline i'm going to have to talk to you
22:43
about the dead because I got on the bus
22:45
way too late absolutely i I will be glad
22:49
to so So you're near Hampton Coliseum so
22:52
you had several encounters with
22:55
Absolutely fans that were coming through
22:56
town to and on their off day they would
22:58
watch a movie exactly so my theater was
23:01
actually adjacent connected to the
23:04
Sheridan where if they were staying
23:07
overnight almost all of the artists
23:09
would stay there and not surprisingly
23:12
they're bored on tour and if they have
23:14
an opportunity to catch a a film many of
23:18
them did so and when we talking we're
23:21
talking about the u the
23:24
untouchables the one of the days that it
23:28
was a matinea obviously because they had
23:30
a show uh but the band the Hooters um
23:33
were there and when I say they were
23:36
watching the film Craig they were the
23:39
only ones left just watching the credits
23:41
after everyone else had fall filed out
23:43
and they were um they it had been out a
23:46
couple of weeks and they hadn't had a
23:48
chance to see it yet and they were just
23:50
over the moon as I found out later
23:52
because they're a Philly band i live
23:53
near Philly now yeah
23:55
um they are very astute in film and all
24:01
sorts all sorts of music and and the
24:03
arts and they were big to Palma fans cuz
24:05
they're all because he shares their
24:08
Philadelphia roots and you know they
24:10
were they even talked that that day we
24:12
sat in after the film and chatted for
24:15
probably 15 minutes and and they were
24:17
talking on and on about Blowout which I
24:19
don't know if I had seen Blowout at that
24:21
time yeah uh but they were big fans of
24:24
that and they they just loved this they
24:26
thought the score was over the was
24:28
incredible and interesting because their
24:31
name comes from what is it the melodica
24:34
or whatever they called it a hooter of
24:37
but which I think Moricone kind of uses
24:40
that in in some of the parts of the
24:42
score you know oh wow yeah um but they
24:46
were great um
24:48
uh got us some they were on tour with
24:50
Brian Adams at the time got us some
24:52
tickets for for the show and that was I
24:54
always associate the Untouchables with
24:57
with that with them and and talking to
25:00
them about that no that that's a such a
25:03
that's such a cool me memory to have
25:05
associated with that movie i think the
25:07
only time I ever watched a movie with a
25:09
famous person was
25:11
um Crocodile Dundy 2 me and my brother
25:14
were the only ones in the theater with
25:17
Jean Shallot um I don't know if you if
25:19
you remember Jean Shout or not um and
25:22
I'm gonna have to ask my brother when
25:24
we're done recording because he
25:26
ackned uh and God I I I I wish I
25:30
remembered my brother's got a much
25:31
better memory than me but yeah did he
25:33
did he wrinkle his gigantic mustache at
25:35
you
25:36
but your story is much better um I can't
25:39
imagine how cool it is seeing it was um
25:41
it was just the two main singer
25:44
songwriters the um Eric Bazilian and Rob
25:47
Heman and this it's like we're I'm
25:50
jealous you got such a cool job it's
25:52
like um come on
25:54
guys thank you but um but this like if I
25:58
could just hang out and watch movies all
26:00
day I would love that is what they said
26:02
but yeah well yeah especially I mean if
26:05
you think about it you know I mean V you
26:07
know V VHS was big back then but um it
26:11
was still costly and I'd imagine you
26:13
know bringing you know you could only
26:14
bring a certain amount of movies on a
26:15
bus with you whereas nowadays you have
26:18
access to anything you want to watch so
26:21
6 months for the release and Yeah yeah
26:23
yeah super super cool discussion here is
26:27
there anything you want to sort of talk
26:28
about this sequence overall before we
26:31
wrap things up i pretty much the main
26:33
thing um Craig that I would remember is
26:35
what a crowdleasing sequence this was
26:40
and it's kind of interesting because it
26:43
it feels like a triumphant ending but
26:45
then the film takes pretty dark turns
26:48
right after that you know and everything
26:50
and I will say this
26:52
because we me and the all of the crew
26:55
loved loved that that movie and because
26:59
it was just so the dialogue was so great
27:02
as happens whenever you're in a
27:04
workplace
27:06
you start using the lines in the
27:08
workplace back and forth uh to each
27:10
other so of and of course we had a Jimmy
27:13
on on the crew you know yeah and and it
27:17
was his break time take a break Jimmy
27:21
get out of town yeah so I I do hope that
27:24
this is not not the last time that we
27:26
podcast together absolutely um I hope we
27:29
can come on and talk about more DAPA um
27:31
in the future and I know that you're not
27:34
currently podcasting but you did have a
27:35
podcast do you want to tell people a
27:37
little bit about that it's on indefinite
27:39
hiatus if myself and and hopefully my
27:42
partner free up some schedule to come
27:45
back it's called Artifact we're here in
27:47
Delaware it's primarily about music but
27:52
we go bleed over
27:54
into music centric films and um I had
27:58
just funny enough last week reposted a
28:02
uh an episode we did about the film uh
28:05
Over the Edge from 1979
28:08
uh where we had interviewed uh the
28:10
screenwriter Charlie Hos um who had
28:13
worked um with Joe Joe Dante and and and
28:17
um with uh Tim Hunter a couple of times
28:20
so if you could Craig post the I'll I'll
28:22
provide the link to that and please
28:24
check it out and we're hoping to come
28:25
back with new content in the future yes
28:28
yeah i mean that's awesome like I said
28:30
I'll include all relevant links but I
28:32
mean you talked to some pretty heavy
28:34
hitters we try we tried i mean I might I
28:38
can't take the credit my my uh my
28:40
partner um Matt has been in the music
28:42
business as a venue owner and a musician
28:45
for many years from Virginia also and
28:48
and he had a lot of contacts and and we
28:50
were we were really really lucky it was
28:52
a great time doing this we're just so
28:54
busy yeah no that that's the one thing
28:57
about life man it it gets in the way and
28:59
uh you know we all sort of just you know
29:01
we all podcast for different reasons but
29:03
at the end of the day it's all about
29:04
having fun uh but you know sadly we have
29:07
to take care of business too dan this
29:10
was such a fun discussion i um and again
29:12
you have an open invitation to come back
29:14
and talk to PMA anytime you want i would
29:17
love to it's been a lot of fun for me as
29:19
well Craig thank you for the time all
29:21
right excellent we'll talk soon take
29:23
care
29:25
hi
29:27
you're great you were great thanks for
29:29
having us that was really generous we
29:32
Thanks for coming we thought it was neat
29:34
neat really neat yeah no one's ever
29:36
described it quite that way hi okay a
29:39
fun ride