The Director's Chair Network

The Insider - Film Review _ Al Pacino's Greatest Performance Since The Godfather Films.m4a
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Oh, there you go. Okay.
I'll probably need at least my host to maybe come on twice with that season.
He took a long break, Terrence Malick.
He did.
Like between whatever Thin Red Line, whatever's before Thin Red Line, I think he took like a dozen years off.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah, then he got a lot out, and I'm really happy about that.
Yeah, of course, that's going to be a fun discussion talking about him.
Okay. The Insider Craig, 1999. Can you believe it's already been 26 years?
It's amazing. The craziest thing about it is you watch this movie and we were both, what, in our 20s when this came out?
24, I guess.
Yeah. And I'm watching this movie and there's certain actors on screen and I'm like, I'm older than these people are in this movie.
1999 is a long time ago. It feels like a long time ago, but at the same time, it helps you sort of realize how quick this whole world moves and how quickly life moves.
Al Pacino is still kind of vital and towards the end of his prime as an actor, I guess. And then you look at him now and you're like, it's night and day.
I mean, the guy's in his 80s and he's a new father. So I mean, it's an energy drain.
But it's just like, wow, in 25 years when I'm watching a movie that came out in 2025 and I'm going to be in my 70s and I'll be like, it's just wild.
It's wild.
Don't say that. Oh, I do not say that. Oh, before we get too deep in the movie at the time it's recording, check it out, folks.
If you're totally off topic, if you're a Superman fan or James Gunn fan, Craig, actually, you posted on your, I think it was the X or Facebook.
You, you, you enjoyed Superman.
And I was humming and hawing about seeing the theater.
I admit, even though it's one of my favorite characters, not that I believe negative reviews, but I was like, I'm hearing a lot of, oh, I hate some of the garbage people talk about.
And, but then I saw the ratings were pretty high and brought to me both for viewers and for critics.
So I'm like, okay, so maybe it's just a lot of, you know, fanboys griping about stuff.
So anyways, I went with my oldest, uh, well, actually my oldest, my oldest son who's living at home.
Currently I have two older sons, but they don't live here.
And we went to the theater together.
We, we both loved it.
I look long story short, maybe I'll link my review.
I've rarely done any solo, like initial knee jerk reactions on my stupid YouTube channel.
They don't really post on there.
It's just more of just my account channel, but I wanted to share my thoughts on that because I was taken aback by the quality of the movie.
It was actually your review that kind of inspired me to like, I want to say my thoughts.
I was going to do a quick Twitter, like byline as well, but you know, I got more to say.
And so I just, I vomited all out.
Well, it's fresh in my brain as well.
Yeah.
The reaction surrounding Superman has been so weird.
And the fandom with DC movies has been weird for a while because Zack Snyder left DC for whatever reasons.
His version of Superman and his version of Batman is very polarizing.
A lot of people responded to the dark man of steel, whereas Superman's always more been a symbol of hope.
So I think that's why a lot of people were looking forward to this new one.
A lot of the Snyder bros, as you know, they like to call them online, I guess rightfully so, couldn't get over the fact that Zack Snyder wasn't able to finish telling the stories that he wanted to tell.
But at the same time, it's funny how when James Gunn was announced as taking over the reins of the DC universe for Warner Brothers, how much negativity there was surrounding that.
But if you look at James Gunn's track record, the guy knows how to make films that audiences like.
It's interesting because he's not always comic book accurate.
But in my opinion, James Gunn makes the most comic book-y comic book movies.
So he still retains the feel of a comic book, even if he's messing with the continuity, which he did big time in the Superman movie.
There's that big, big reveal that sort of rocks Superman's world in terms of his origins and all that.
That's right. I didn't even speak to that in the review.
I was waiting for that to be altered.
I don't want to spoil it.
I was waiting for that moment to be like, oh, Lex altered something.
And it was like, oh, no, that was the message.
But you know what?
I was okay with it.
Yeah.
And at the same time, it gave Pa Kent a great sort of moment to be his father.
I forgot to mention that in my review.
I wanted to say that where I was like, we had the classic Jonathan Kent moment with Clark that I started tearing up.
I was like, oh, they got me.
I just love that relationship.
They really nailed that parent relationship, the adoptive, birth parent relationship.
Yeah.
And I loved how genuine those Ma and Pa Kent were.
Yeah, it was awesome.
They seemed like 2025 Midwesterners.
That was one of the gripes online was people, no, they really blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, oh, my God.
I like that they were.
Yeah, anyways.
Yeah.
But either way, I'm a James Gunn fan.
And if you go through his filmography, his comic book movie filmography, the guy hasn't missed.
Love him or hate him.
Unless you're a certified player hater, you're not going to be able to watch this movie and come away saying he didn't do exactly what he intended to do.
You might not agree with it, but he made the movie.
It was fun.
It was fun.
Yeah, yeah.
I've said it on this show.
I know I've said it on other shows.
I love stupid shit, man.
And comic book movies are supposed to have stupid shit in them.
The fact that we were able to see crypto done seriously in a movie was awesome.
Ten years ago, if you had talked about putting crypto in a Superman movie, you probably would have been laughed out of the room.
But he did it.
And there were genuine emotional moments tied to that effing CGI dog, too.
Yeah, I stressed out about a couple scenes, too.
Yeah.
And I got to say that, like, Luther was such a well-written version of Lex Luthor, like a villain.
And we talked about player haters.
He's like the ultimate player hater.
And anytime you sit down and watch a movie, you can find connections to social commentary.
And dovetailing into The Insider, holy smokes.
Watching The Insider yesterday, after what's been going on this week with CBS and Paramount and Stephen Colbert.
Oh, right.
It's like a direct mirror to what happened at CBS almost 30 years ago.
Okay.
With 60 Minutes.
Sorry, folks, with their little, well, six-minute tangent on Superman.
It's a current film that's top of the box office, and we're talking movies.
But if you want, just go to my name, Ryan Rebalkin, on YouTube, and you can see my Superman.
It'll probably get 50 views.
But it was just fun to talk about.
And really quickly, I know you're going to listen to it afterwards, Craig.
But I actually mentioned that about Lex.
It was great that he was just a bad person.
He was evil.
I like that they made Lex evil.
There's no silliness about it.
He's actually an evil guy.
And I like that he just wants to kill Superman.
I love it.
Good old classic.
He just wants to kill.
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah.
They didn't overtly make his point of view sympathetic.
But you could at least understand the idea of somebody being skeptical of a really, really powerful alien.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, I love it.
Good stuff.
Okay.
1999, The Insider, directed by Michael Mann.
Based on a...
Look at Michael Mann.
Oh, he's got...
So far, I think he's six for six based on a novel or otherwise a journalistic piece.
He directed this based on The Man Who Knew Too Much.
It was a Vanity Fair article, which you sent to me and I read by Mary Brenner.
Did you get a chance to watch the 60-minute segment?
Yeah.
I read the Vanity Fair piece, which I had never done.
And I watched the 60-minute piece.
I did the full Insider experience.
Yeah.
Save here.
Okay.
I'm just going to get this out of the way.
I haven't ranked the Michael Mann films yet because that's going to be the end of the season.
I'll get my ranking.
Boy, every criticism I had about Michael Mann's editing, character development, dialogue, he nails...
This is...
This is...
As of right now, I think this is his best film.
I was going to say...
It's funny.
We're on the same page.
I was going to say that this is Michael Mann's masterpiece.
And I've talked about it in the Heat episode.
I think I mentioned it on other Michael Mann discussions.
But one thing that Michael Mann does really, really well is he shows people doing their job.
He shows professionals being professional.
And you see that here in the Insider with the way Lowell Bergman...
Played by Al.
Yeah.
Al Pacino's character, producer for CBS.
You see the way he handles being a story producer for CBS.
You see how he navigates that world and how he uses connections and all that.
And I think that's the thing about Michael Mann that at least I connect with is you believe that the people on screen are professionally handling their profession in a professional manner.
It also shows that Michael Mann takes the care and the thought to do the research behind making sure everything looks and sounds authentic.
Yeah, very well said.
I think I've seen the movie before.
I probably saw it 26 years ago.
And I probably saw it the one time.
And granted, I was younger.
I was, like I said, I was 24 in 1999.
So I might not have gleaned everything or understood the significance of everything the way I do now as I near 50.
So watching this now, I was...
I also saw the film length.
I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.
Two hours and 40 minutes?
Are you kidding me?
I didn't watch it in one city, not because of boredom, but just because of just time.
I would watch it in like...
In 2025, we could do that.
Yeah.
And that's just...
It plays like a miniseries the way he did.
You can watch parts.
You don't lose the flow or the feel.
It plays like a documentary.
And it could easily be a three-part documentary on Netflix, really.
You could edit just a little bit differently.
You could have three parts.
So I'm watching this, and I had forgotten everything.
In fact, I was like, had I seen this before?
I'm sure I did, because I was a huge, huge movie goer.
I probably even saw it in the theaters.
Yeah, I did.
But I don't recall.
And we're going to go through the actors.
I don't want to talk about the actors just yet, because we're going to go through some of the Bill and the actors and parts they played, as we always do on the show.
Jesse Eisenberg's little sister?
Well, yeah, we'll start with her.
But before we get to the actors, I would recommend to anyone, watch this movie.
Watch this movie.
We're going to be talking about things.
There's not really any spoilers, per se, because it's a true story.
It just basically deals with the character played by Russell Crowe.
He plays Dr.
Jeffrey Weigand.
Weigand.
Doctor, yeah.
I'm glad you said that, because he makes sure he corrects people in the movie.
He basically blew the lid.
It was a whistleblower.
He said, look, we alter cigarettes to make them more addicting and more appealing.
The big tobacco company leaders testified under oath and lied under oath, and he called them out on that.
And correct me if I'm wrong, the movie didn't say this, neither did the 60 Minutes piece, but I recall, Craig, at the time, especially, well, at least in Canada, around this time, where they did start putting pictures on cigarette packs saying cigarettes will cause lung cancer.
Cigarettes will cause mouth cancer, and they show pictures of mouth and lung cancer on the cigarette packs in Canada.
Yeah, I don't know.
Is that tied to this, maybe, or do you think it is?
I'd imagine so.
I'd imagine so.
I remember a time where they didn't have those warnings on cigarettes.
Yes.
They had doctors saying that they're healthy in the 50s and 40s.
You know, five out of six doctors recommend Camel or whatever.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
It's amazing to see.
And the argument was made more in the 60 Minutes piece about the tobacco executives justifying what they did because it was a legal product.
Oh, I love that one guy who was speaking for the tobacco company.
Yeah.
I just want to punch him in the face.
Yeah.
His pompiness and smugness on that interview was just like, just because it's legal, it's legal for me to eat a Big Mac, but shoving them down my kid's throat daily.
Yeah.
Just because something's legal doesn't mean you should feed a child something, that thing.
Yeah.
Or whatever it is.
But they were saying, yeah, we're giving something that's legal and we're promoting it legally, but yeah.
Oh, I just wanted to.
I hate that.
I hate it when people act that way.
It bugs me.
I'm sorry.
Well, yeah.
I don't know what it's like in Canada, but you don't see very much cigarette advertising anymore at all.
There's none.
There's none on TV.
There's none.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know if you remember Joe Cool.
Oh, yeah.
The camel?
The camel.
It was like the camel.
And Joe Cool was pretty much put out to pasture because they're like, WTF, Joe Cool is for young people to identify with.
You know, like he's like Tony the Tiger for cigarettes.
So, yeah, it's interesting.
Overall, there's a downswing in smoking among young people, which I guess, you know, Dr. Weigand finally won.
And he's still alive.
He's in his 80s, I believe.
Yeah.
So, this movie's about him and CBS 60 Minutes back when, you know, when they talked about how we are an honest news industry sharing honest news.
They took that integrity, that news journalism.
There was a time, Craig.
There was a time.
I'm not trying to get political here.
That's not my intent.
But there was a time when journalists really fought for the truth and protected that truth.
They took that truth seriously.
This whole movie is about how even 60 Minutes that they were pressured themselves into being sued.
And that was one of the great moments of the movie is when Al Pacino's character is saying to Mike Wall's character, played by, of course, Christopher Plummer, that, you know, I can't believe we're not sharing the news because we're being strong-armed.
This is the truth.
Why can't we say the truth?
When we're bending over for a tobacco company, we're the news.
Yeah, but it wasn't even that also.
It was the fact, and this is where we get parallels with 2025.
It was the fact that CBS was courting an offer from Westinghouse to purchase them, which is very, very similar to in 2025.
Paramount is looking to do a merger with Skydance that has to be approved by the federal government.
So now political speech is being sort of regulated either internally or externally by the fact that a merger may or may not be approved based on what certain people are saying.
It's actually pretty effing scary.
And I don't know how deep into it you are, but Matt Stone and Trey Parker, the South Park creators, are actually in litigation right now with Paramount over the fact that they've been handcuffed with how they're able to do new episodes of South Park.
Oh, no.
And I guess those guys have enough clout and enough money and I guess enough determination to go head to head with Paramount and be like, listen, we're not going to lay down.
We're going to do the show we want to do, whether you want us to or not.
Yeah, because they can just say, we'll just take it somewhere else.
Yeah, we're in really, really interesting times, man.
I mean, that's ridiculous.
I'm sorry.
I'm a big advocate for when it comes to comedy.
I'm a big comedian guy.
I hate it when comedy is censored.
I'm sorry.
If you don't like it, don't listen to it.
That's easy.
It's censoring the music is the same thing.
I'm just saying, if you don't want to hear it, then just don't listen to it.
That's easy.
It's easy to do.
But I won't listen to it.
But I also won't advocate for a government group saying they can't sing it, if that makes sense.
And that's the funniest thing, too, now, because as media has gotten smaller in terms of ownership, it's harder and harder to have unique voices.
Because it's corporate capitalist art, which none of those words should work together.
It was just really interesting.
If we had done this episode a year ago, the discussion probably would have been a lot differently.
But it was wild watching it last night where I'm like, this shit is actually happening right now.
I will say about the music on this.
This is his most non...
It still had that Tangerine dream.
Like, especially, you know, it still had Tangerine dream.
But yeah.
There was a moment at the end.
What was the sequence now?
Oh.
Where Al's basically, he resigns, right?
And he goes through those double doors that spin.
The...
What are those called?
Yeah.
I know he told you.
Rotating doors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it goes to slow motion when he's adjusting his...
Jackets.
His jacket.
Well, the movie starts the same way it ends.
Or ends with the same way it starts with Russell Crowe's character walking in slow motion at the beginning.
And then the end has Al Pacino's character walking in slow motion.
Yeah.
Directing styles.
It's got the classic Michael Mann with the face right in front of the screen with off-the-shoulder background stuff.
I think Michael Mann, I think he likes to direct movies where people are on the phone.
Boy.
Yeah.
People are on the phone.
Yeah.
The most memorable sequence for me from a filmmaking standpoint was when Brown and Williamson call Jeffrey back because they want to basically renegotiate his NDA.
They say, we've added some stipulations to it.
You're basically getting over the shoulder of Russell Crowe's shots where you're seeing the tobacco executive.
And there's even a time where, while the tobacco executive is talking, it moves from one shoulder to the other with Russell Crowe.
And just the framing, and I didn't get technical enough to see what kind of lenses and things they were using.
No, I don't know either.
All that framing worked for me so well.
And from an acting perspective, I don't know if you saw in the 60 Minutes piece, the actual Brown and Williamson executive.
That dude nailed it in this movie.
He nailed the voice.
He nailed the mannerisms.
He nailed-
Are you talking about Crowe?
No, no.
What was the guy's name?
The executive.
He's a British guy in real life.
Are you talking about Michael Gamden?
Yeah, uh-huh.
Yeah, he wasn't in it very much, but he played the CEO, Thomas Sandefur.
Yeah, yeah.
He brings Jeffrey into the office, and he talks about what a great golf player he is and his handicap.
But if you see that guy in the CBS piece and then look at Gambone's performance, he was probably the most accurate.
Interesting.
Okay, yes.
Michael Gamden did do a great job, and that was his only role in the whole film.
I'm actually kind of surprised, but it works for the film where the CEO basically pulls Crowe's character in, Dr. Weigand, and says,
Yeah, we're renegotiating a non-disclosure agreement just because we feel the heat coming down that you're going to say something.
And that was a very tense, almost mafia-esque meeting, and I suspect that's how it went down.
Yeah.
Yeah, just to point out that Michael Gambone, he's an Irish-English actor.
So, you know, he-
The American accent in that one.
Yeah, what, a Kentucky-
Yeah.
Accent.
That scene also illustrates, from a character standpoint, or overall thematically, this movie really focuses on decisions, heavy, heavy decisions.
This guy had a family that he was responsible for.
He felt a certain responsibility for his family, and rightfully so.
And he intended to maintain his confidentiality agreement.
Yeah.
But at the same time, he more and more saw the need or the duty to get the truth out there.
That's one thing that Crowe did particularly well, and that Eric Roth and Michael Mann, the screenwriters, did a really good job writing and illustrating.
Because you really feel for the guy.
You really feel for the decisions he's going through.
And the one lawyer even says to him, he goes, I completely understand if you don't end up doing this.
He's like, I flew fighter jets where you have to make decisions in a second or in multiple seconds.
But this is a decision that you're going to have to live with for the rest of your life.
So I understand you not taking it lightly.
I know what you're facing, Jeff.
I think I know how you're feeling.
In the Navy, I flew A-6s off carriers.
In combat, events have a duration of seconds, sometimes minutes.
But what you're going through goes on day in, day out, whether you're ready for it or not.
Week in, week out.
Month after month after month.
Whether you're up or whether you're down.
You're assaulted psychologically.
You're assaulted financially.
Which is its own special kind of violence, because it's directed at your kids.
What school can you afford?
How will that affect their lives?
You're asking yourself, will that limit what they may become?
You feel your whole family's future is compromised.
Held hostage.
I do know how it is.
I can't remember another film that dealt with that sort of choices or decision making the way that this film did.
Yeah, I felt the pressure.
I'm a father myself.
And I, too.
I'm not going to say I would sell my soul to the devil to take care of my family.
But I get it.
Things that a father or any provider will do for their loved ones.
You will sort of do stuff to take care of your family.
Like my family.
No offense to you, Craig.
No offense to my neighbor next to me.
My number one priority is the people on my roof.
The people in my home.
They're my number one priority.
Now, I am happy to help and figure things out outside my home.
But if my house and home and family members aren't taking care of first, I'm not going to be much help to anyone anyways.
But they're my number one priority.
And so do I not lie?
But, yeah, do I not tell the truth about what nicotine is doing and what the chemicals we're doing to make it more addictive?
You know, but it's feeding my family.
They're getting the best education.
We have a home roof over our heads.
Yeah, he was like, no, we're killing too many people.
Too many people don't know the truth.
They don't know what they're signing up for.
And, again, that's why, at least in Canada, again, I don't know what it's like in the States.
We have in Canada on our cigarette packs.
It has pictures, Craig.
It has pictures of mouth cancer on the cigarettes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know that our two countries are very different in how they handle things.
Sure.
But it also illustrated the fact that one of his major concerns was health care.
Yeah.
Whereas, you know, in the States, your health care is directly tied to your employment.
And we could have a whole other discussion about the fact that people stay in jobs they don't like or don't want to be in because of their health care.
And that drove the conflict within Wigan.
And Crowe was able to physically really show all of that weight and that pressure.
So, as we know, Michael Gabon.
How do you say his name?
His last name?
Gambon.
Gambon.
So, of course, he was in the Harry Potter films, very famous playing Dumbledore.
He took over for Richard Harris.
Yeah.
Who passed away.
And, of course, Sir Gambon's passed away himself.
He passed away just a couple of years ago at the age of.
He was 82 when he passed away.
So, good for him.
He lived a full life.
Now, do you know any of those films?
I admit I kind of only know him from mostly from the Harry Potter films.
Wasn't he in like a Guy Ritchie movie?
Probably.
Acting credits.
Goodness.
Boy, he's got tons.
Yes.
Yeah.
The Insider, Sleepy Hollow.
Gosford Park.
That's what I know him for.
That was a Robert Altman movie.
Oh, that's the director you might have to cover on this.
Yeah, right?
He played the Prime Minister in the Ali G movie.
He was in that Kevin Costner movie, Open Range.
Oh, that's right.
Oh, my gosh.
I love that film.
Oh, Layer Cake is.
That's right.
Okay.
Not Guy Ritchie, but Matthew Vaughn.
Layer Cake.
That was a breakout performance for Daniel Craig prior to being.
That's right.
James Bond.
He was also in Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou.
Okay.
So that's what I mean.
He's one of those actors.
I'm looking at his filmography as well as we go through it.
I've seen a lot of his films.
Not all of them, but I've seen a lot of his films.
And yeah, obviously a very accomplished television stage screen actor.
And rest in peace to him.
But small role in this film, but very compelling role in that movie.
Yeah, he died in 2023.
Yeah.
Okay.
The next one I have on this list of character and actors.
Jesse Eisenberg's little sister.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's her name again?
Ailey or is it?
Yeah.
Boy, she looks like a.
She looks like a.
Little girl version of him.
Yes.
He looks like.
Did they have him in Canada?
The Pepsi commercials that she did?
Oh, I can't remember.
I had to look her up because I was like, was she curly Sue?
But she wasn't.
But she didn't have that look.
And she doesn't act anymore.
But you can see the Eisenberg blood in her.
The DNA is in her.
Yeah.
She was a great little child actor.
I admit she was in a lot of scenes playing the daughter.
Before Jesse too.
Before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She did well.
Did I ever tell you that the two of them went to the high school in the town in Jersey
I lived in for 20 years?
You did.
I think you did.
And I remembered Haley because she did these Pepsi commercials that used to play before the
movies at AMC.
And I guess they were on regular TV too.
Yeah.
When Jesse came out, the big trivia would be like, you know who his sister is?
Because she was the star before he was.
That's right.
Yeah.
That's funny.
Mike Moore, who is a member of the Democratic Party, Attorney General of Mississippi, he
played himself in that film.
Because when I saw the Mike Moore character come onto the film, he had that quick little
scene there, two thirds, three quarters of the way through, regarding this whole tobacco
issue.
Because he was a part of that issue at the time.
It's him.
I was like, well, he thought an actor looked just like him.
But no, they got him to do that part.
Yeah, that's wild.
And that's probably completely due to Michael Mann.
Probably consulting, you know, probably looking for him to consult.
And then being like, well, yeah, well, shit, why don't you just, you know.
We should state that this movie came out in 99, but these events came out just a few years
prior.
This is a recent film of recent events.
Like this wasn't like this.
94 to 96.
Yeah, that's right.
94 to 96 was kind of when all this took place and they released the film in 99.
So this was a fairly new story.
So all the players, Craig, who are including the people of the Brown and Williamson Tobacco
Company, they're around.
They're watching this film go down.
What do you think their thoughts were?
Like Thomas Sandefur, the CEO, you got to wonder what he thinks of this film before.
He's dead now, by the way.
He died at the age of 57.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, he died young.
What do you think they thought of the time?
Do you ever wonder about that?
Obviously, they knew they were on the wrong side of history or just the wrong side of being
a responsible member of society.
But at the same time, Michael Mann knew he had to present these people in a way that wouldn't
make things litigious.
So is that really something they have to worry about?
I think so, especially if you're naming the character, the actual character.
Okay.
I don't think you can put anything on screen that you can't go to court over and be like,
this was Dr. Wigand's recollection of the conversation.
You couldn't have Sandefur shoot a kid on camera.
Sure, sure, sure.
Yeah.
But I also wonder if I'd even go see the film if I was one of those people.
Your willpower, if it's true that they didn't, that's amazing willpower.
Like, I would have to see what they do about me.
I couldn't help it.
Okay.
All right.
So very small role, but I recognize him.
Breckenmeyer played the son.
Did you catch that?
No, actually, I was just looking on Wikipedia and I saw it and I was like, I did not.
He was on the bed.
He jumps on the bed at the beginning of the film with El Pacino and his wife and the two
sons who walk out the door.
Breckenmeyer is one of them.
That's hilarious.
I missed that until right now.
Blink and you'll miss it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, at the beginning of the film, we see Mike Wall is played by, wonderfully, by Christopher
Plummer, which we'll get to, of course.
We have an actor named Cliff Curtis, who I know by face, but I didn't know by name.
He's one of those actors.
Oh, that guy.
But he played Sheik Fadlawa.
Yeah.
That was an amazing beginning.
So the movie starts off with a Middle Eastern country.
I forget which one it was.
I apologize.
But you see El Pacino's character in Blindfold, and it starts off in that very, I would say
he's tropish, not like that, but it's either in a foreign land.
There's obviously terrorist groups around, but it's showing you how Mike Wall is able to
go into these countries and do these interviews.
It just shows his grit as a journalist, and it has kind of nothing to do with the movie as
a whole, but it shows you the Mike Wall's, El Pacino's character's relationship, how they
work together.
Yeah.
And Cliff Curtis is actually from New Zealand.
He's Maori.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
There's a quote here on his Wikipedia page.
I don't know if you saw it, where they talk about him being able to play different ethnicities.
And he says, when asked about being an all-purpose ethnic actor, he said, it's been a real advantage.
I love being ethnic.
I love the color of my skin.
There are limitations in the business.
That's a reality.
But I've been given such wonderful opportunities.
Oh, good for him.
I like that.
I like that.
He's like, yeah, I'm brown.
And I get to play a lot of bad guys in films.
I get to play terrorists.
Yeah.
I like that.
Well, he's made a career out of it, right?
So, you know, he's working steady to this day.
But he's one of those faces like, oh, that's him.
He's been in everything from Avatar to Meg films, Fast and Furious.
Boy, live free and die hard.
Like, he's been in tons of runaway jury collateral damage.
He's just been everywhere.
And yeah, good for him.
I love it.
And he was great just at the beginning, like with the makeup and everything.
I thought they got a, I hate to say it, not hate to say it, but I thought it was like a local, you know, they got a New Zealander to play that.
Okay.
Great opening sequence.
Now, Blinky, if you'll miss him again, Rip Torn was in this film.
He played the character John Scanlon in the film.
I think it was in that meeting where the round table, two thirds away through the film, they're talking about releasing this as a news.
He played one of the 60 Minutes business people.
Probably just.
Oh, yeah.
But Blinky, you'll miss him.
I was looking for him.
And I, yeah, I don't know where he might have been on the editing floor, but enough to be credited.
Okay.
Now we have the lovely Gina Gershon.
You know, Gina Gershon.
Of course.
From Showgirls fame, bound fame.
She killed it in this scene.
Yeah.
You said on this one.
What about this one?
If this holds up, and it very well may not, Mike, but if it did, and we aired this segment, and CBS was sued by Brown and Williamson, I think we could be a grave risk.
How grave?
Well, at the end of the day, because of your segment, the Brown and Williamson tobacco company could own CBS.
You know, I am sorry, but I'm due upstairs.
Is CBS corporate telling CBS news, do not go to air with this story?
You're getting ahead of yourself.
We're all in this together.
We're all CBS.
We'll find out soon.
Thank you, John.
Talk about playing against type.
She's a lawyer, a high-profile lawyer.
She's, what, on the legal team for CBS.
Yeah.
But her performance and her scene was completely believable.
She owned it.
She's great.
She's a great actress.
Yeah.
She's got a lot of range, and I thought it was a great scene, and I thought it was a great performance.
And she's easy to look at.
Yeah, she's a lovely woman.
She's 37 in this film.
So this is how old we're getting, Craig.
She's 13 years my junior in this film.
Yeah.
You know, she looked amazing.
She looked a powerful, hot, lawyer type.
Yeah.
Smart, tough.
However, the scene where Christopher Plummer playing Mike Walls puts her in her place, fantastic moment in that film.
You cut the guts out of what I said.
It was a time consideration, Mike.
Time bullshit!
You corporate lackey.
Who told you your incompetent little fingers have the requisite skills to edit me?
I'm trying to band-aid a situation here, and you're too dim to...
Mike.
Mike.
Mike?
Mike!
Try Mr. Wallace.
We work in the same corporation doesn't mean we work in the same profession.
Now, what are you going to do now?
You're going to finesse me?
Lawyer me some more?
I've been in this profession in 50 fucking years.
You and the people you work for are destroying the most respected, the highest rate of the most profitable show on this network.
Oh, that was so good.
It's Mr. Wallace to you.
Oh, I just love that moment.
That film.
So good.
But yeah, she did great.
And she's obviously a very accomplished actress who's been in tons of stuff.
Still working to this day.
She's got a movie coming out called Tapu Wingo.
She was also just in High Rollers, and she's doing TV and film.
So she's all over the place.
Good for her.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Next, we have – I think I'm at the point now where I do know his name because he's been in so much stuff.
I think even stuff I've covered.
Bruce McGill.
Oh, yeah.
D-Day from Animal House.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sure.
That's right.
We can start there.
That just made me laugh because it's like I keep forgetting that he did that role.
I've seen that movie once, Craig.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I've seen it, but I've seen it once.
Bruce McGill, by the way, this is the first of three movies he made with Michael Mann.
Yeah.
That's right.
He's going to pop up again in Ali and then also Collateral.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
He's a great – Bruce McGill is that actor.
He's got the perfect of works all the time, is really good at his job, but he can go grocery shopping still.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've talked about that.
Yeah.
That's the ideal career.
Yeah.
He was in Reacher recently as well, but he's been in everything from Blue Bloods to TV shows.
Even Family Guy, the guy has just done it all.
Then in the movies, he's been in everything you've seen.
You name it, he's seen it from Steven Spielberg films to Bruce Stone films to – I think every director we cover, we might see Bruce McGill pop up at some point.
I think it's almost like that.
But his scene, he had a great –
The deposition scene.
Yeah.
When he is barking at that tobacco lawyer.
Oh.
Yeah.
When he yelled.
So, even though it's acting, when he yelled at that lawyer, I got quiet.
I was like, yes, dad.
Like, I felt like I was getting yelled at.
That authoritative yell.
Then he goes back to Russell Crowe's character, Dr. Weigen, in his talks to normal.
Does it act as a drug?
Dr. Weigen.
I am instructing you not to answer that question.
Mr. In accordance to the terms of the contractual obligations undertaken by you, not to disclose any information about your work at the Brown and Williamson Tobacco Company.
Mr. In accordance with the force and effect of the temporary restraining order that has been entered against you by the court in the state of Kentucky.
Mr. Motley, we have rights here.
Oh, you've got rights.
And lefts.
Ups and downs and middles.
So what?
You don't get to instruct anything around here.
This is not North Carolina, not South Carolina, nor Kentucky.
This is the sovereign state of Mississippi's proceeding.
Wipe that smirk off your face!
Dr. Wagon's deposition will be part of this record.
And I'm going to take my witness's testimony, whether the hell you like it or not!
Answer the question, doctor.
Yes.
It produces a physiological response, which meets the definition of a drug.
Nicotine is associated with impact and satisfaction.
But boy, the way he turned it on.
That was a great moment for Bruce to showcase his acting talent for future directors.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so the next lawyer who plays with McGill, they're on the same team.
By the way, these guys are real lawyers.
Ron Motley.
See, yeah, Bruce McGill's lawyer's name is a real name.
Ron Motley.
The same way you spell Motley Crue.
I love it.
Ron Motley.
And then his partner was Richard Scruggs, played by Confior.
Now, Confior is another face.
You'll see him like, oh yeah.
Now, his age in this film, it was 39, by the way.
Yeah.
So, he's now 66, I believe.
Was he not in the show, The Stand, the miniseries?
Am I thinking of that?
Oh, was he?
Am I wrong about that?
I'm quickly looking.
Maybe it's not him.
I'm talking.
Oh, no.
Sorry.
That's right.
He was in a Stephen King miniseries, Storm of the Century.
Oh, okay.
That's the one I reckon.
I knew it was a Stephen King production that I saw that he was in.
He plays the bad guy in that.
Again, another working actor.
You see his face.
If I go up to the average person, hey, do you know who Confior is?
They'll be like, who?
Yeah.
But then you show a picture of him, and you're like, oh, that guy.
Yeah.
And this was his era, because around this time, he also made Face Off, City of Angels.
Yeah.
That's right.
Pearl Harbor, The Sum of All Fears.
His last credit was 2023.
Yeah.
That's the thing about these older actors and actresses.
It's just that he's 66.
Not as old, but he's got three kids.
He's married with three kids.
Life could be busy with the family, too.
Oh, he's also a part of the recurring cast of Landman, which is one of the many Teller Sheridan shows.
I saw the first season, by the way.
Of course, he's the guy that hangs out in Billy Bob Thornton's house all the time.
That's right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Have you not seen that season?
No, I haven't watched it.
Is it worth it?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Billy Bob's amazing in it.
And his wife, Ellie Larder.
Okay.
Holy smokers.
Wow.
She plays Billy Bob's wife?
Yeah, I know.
There's a bit of an age gap, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's a season two coming up.
Yeah.
I highly recommend Landman.
If you like Billy Bob at all, it's Billy Bob.
It's Billy Bob to a T.
He did a show a couple of years ago, too, called Goliath.
Yeah.
I heard that was all right, though.
But this is good.
I think this is good for him.
Okay.
Of course, we have the classic Stephen Tobolowsky.
Did he the guy from Groundhog Day?
Yeah.
Every time I see him, I see him in Groundhog Day getting punched in the street by Bill Murray.
He's another working actor.
Again, if I say his name, very few people will know the name.
But if you show the face, you're like, oh, that guy.
Yeah.
He plays one of the CBS high leadership positions that kind of pushes back on showing the unedited interview that Russell Crowe gives.
Okay.
Now we're getting to one of the teammates with Al Pacino's character in 60 Minutes is Debbie DeLuca, who is played by Debbie Mazar.
Again, a face size.
I was like, oh, her.
Yeah.
But what do you really know her from?
Entourage.
That's right.
Thank you.
It was killing me, Craig.
And I watched Entourage just the one time through.
I think she was Vinny's publicist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So she was good.
She was fine.
Yeah.
So Pacino's wife was played by Lindsey Krauss.
She looked sort of familiar.
Again, another actress where like, I've seen you before, but I couldn't pin her on any roles that I've seen her.
Did you recognize her for anything?
No, but she was married for 13 years to David Mamet.
Oh, wow.
Zoe Mamet's mother.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
And she's 77 now.
Again.
She did fine playing Pacino's wife.
She was in Kroll.
She played Princess Lysa's voice in Kroll.
Oh, remember that movie Kroll?
Yeah.
And then also Iceman, which was another one where they thaw out the Neanderthal.
Yeah.
They find the Neanderthal frozen in ice in the Antarctic and they thaw him out.
Yeah.
All right.
Another great character actor.
You see him all the time.
Philip Baker Hall.
Yeah.
He was the detective on Seinfeld, right?
Wasn't he?
Yes.
That's right.
The library detective or something?
That's right.
That's right.
He was playing like Dragnet style type.
Yeah.
And then a lot of people know him because Paul Thomas Anderson gave him sort of a revitalized
career with Boogie Nights.
Magnolia is what I thought.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Boy, that's a movie I go back to.
I watched Magnolia.
Funny enough, Magnolia came out in 99 as well.
I think 99 is considered a really good year for movies, if I remember correctly.
Well, yeah.
And we've talked about Tom Cruise as an actor before.
Magnolia is just tremendous, tremendous performance.
Overall, that's just a beast of a movie.
Check out the movies this dude was in just in 99.
Just this guy.
Cradle of Rock.
Yeah.
Magnolia and the talented Mr. Ripley.
Wow.
Yeah.
So this dude was in those films released that year.
Holy smokers.
Yeah.
He was on a heater.
Yeah.
No kidding.
All right.
All right.
We're getting close to the big guns here.
Now we've got this Diana Venora who plays.
You were very critical of her in Heat.
Was that the same actress?
Wasn't she the wife in?
Oh, no.
She was in FX.
That's what I knew her from.
Oh, then we did that film together, you and I.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah.
She was the girlfriend that gets murdered.
Okay.
Boy, I should probably link our episode of FX.
That was a fun movie to cover.
Yeah.
On the Last of the Action Heroes Podcast network feed.
Yeah.
So Craig and I covered the FX film with Brian Dennehy.
And okay.
So she did look.
My brain was tickling.
I mean, she's.
Yeah.
For some reason, I was like, oh, that's the girl from Heat.
And I didn't think about it again until just now.
And I was like, oh, no.
Oh, no.
She was in Heat.
Was she in Heat?
What?
No.
Was that?
That's not Pacino's.
Wait a minute.
She played Justine.
Yeah.
Justine Hannah.
That was Hannah was Pacino's wife.
Wait.
So I was right.
Yeah.
You were super critical of her in that movie.
You called her the low budget to be more.
No, I didn't say low budget.
I said team or wish.com.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But hey, look at what a hairstyle does.
Boy, Craig, that's crazy.
Right.
The hairstyle through.
Now that I take off that hair.
It is her.
Is that?
I just covered Heat for five freaking episodes.
My brain's like, where have you seen her before?
Now, granted, to her credit, she played a wholly different character.
Yeah.
And I didn't even make the connection to FX.
So, I mean, she's a little bit of a chameleon of an actress.
Okay, she might be a chameleon, but she, okay, I'm sorry to this lovely woman, Diana Venora.
That's right.
She's not a good actress, Craig.
She's not good.
No, she's not good.
You know, in the 50s, the way they acted in the 50s, that type of acting, the 40s and 50s, that's her acting style.
Yeah, I guess so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know what I mean?
Like, oh, Dr. Smith, I can't go to bed with you.
I'm married.
There's something about her acting that's very, make it black and white and she'd fit into that film styling.
Yeah.
In this movie, it didn't bother me one way or the other.
I mean, I thought she was completely fine.
Oh, funny enough.
Okay.
So, Lyann Wygen, the real life wife to Russell Crowe's character, Dr. Wygen, in the 60 Minutes coverage, this is why I'm glad you watched it, in the movie, they filed for divorce.
They didn't get a divorce, but because the documentary came out after the events, they didn't get divorced.
And I was really happy.
Yeah.
Weren't you happy to hear that?
They worked.
It's like the 60 Minutes interview segment.
Yeah.
It's like a sequel.
It's like the Insider Part 2.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh-huh.
Because it gives you a lot of results that the movie didn't have because they didn't cover a certain timeline.
Yeah.
So, I was so happy to hear that they were together because I showed them praying around the table with their kids.
I'm like, yay!
Yeah.
We're together!
Yeah.
And check this out.
But if you watch it again, not the whole thing, but to see her, Lyon Wygen, you know who looks just like her?
Like, bang on?
Mm-hmm.
Laura Dern.
Oh, right.
So, Lyon Wygen is, I hate to say it, the real, is prettier than Diane Fagora or whatever.
See, like, she's just a prettier woman in real life.
Yeah.
And then she looks just like Laura Dern.
I was like, oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
I think Laura Dern might have been too young at the time.
Yeah.
Although it does say he's married to somebody else now.
That's true, but they were together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Dr. Wygen is still alive at 87, and he's been married to her for a little while.
That's right.
I did catch that.
He's 82.
82.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Now we have the late, great Christopher Plummer.
Now the next three, let's just be honest, between Christopher Russell and Al.
Now we're talking wholly acting big guns.
These three carried this two-hour and 40-minute film on their frickin', with the writing and directing
of Michael Mann, absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
But boy, these guys were amazing.
Like Christopher Plummer, boy, wow, his job as Mike Wallace.
I think he did a good job.
It's one of those things where visually he didn't really resemble Mike Wallace.
Yeah.
But he captured his essence.
It was great watching the 60 Minutes interview and comparing it to the movie and really seeing
how they matched the deliveries.
they basically, they didn't tamper with the dialogue at all.
You heard Mr. Sandefur say, before Congress, that he believed nicotine was not addictive.
I believe Mr. Sandefur perjured himself because I watched those testimonies very carefully.
No, all of us did.
I mean, there was this whole line of people, this whole line of CEOs up there all swearing.
Part of the reason I'm here is that I felt that their representation clearly misstated, at least within Brown and Williamson's representation, clearly misstated what is common language within the company.
We are in the nicotine delivery business.
And that's what cigarettes are for.
Delivery device for nicotine.
A delivery device for nicotine.
Put it in your mouth, light it up, and you're going to get your fix.
You're going to get your fix.
Yeah.
Michael Mann really made sure when they showed the news coverage of the actual events and then you watched the 60-minute segment, they didn't embellish.
Nope.
There were no artistic choices there.
The cuts were the same.
That speaks to Michael Mann's quest for authenticity.
Are you a Plummer fan or are you just one of those things like, oh, he's there and he's easy to watch?
No, I like Christopher Plummer.
There's a great speech at the end of the movie where he passed away in 2021.
He was great.
91, mind you.
Yeah, he was great in Knives Out, which might have been one of his last movies.
Right.
I like him, but there was a really good scene at the end of the movie where he talks about you reach a certain point in your life where you don't make plans for the future.
And you look for how you're going to be remembered and the legacy you leave behind and things like that.
You're remembered for the last moments of your life.
In the real world, when you get to where I am, there are other considerations.
Like what?
Corporate responsibility?
Are we talking celebrity here?
I'm not talking celebrity, vanity, CBS.
I'm talking about when you're near the end of your life in the beginning.
And what do you think you think about that?
The future?
In the future, I'm going to do this, become that?
What future?
No.
What you think is, how will I be regarded in the end?
After I'm gone.
Along the way, I suppose I made some minor impact.
I did a Randgate and an Ayatollah, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Saddam, Sadat, etc., etc.
I showed them thieves in suits.
I spent a lifetime building all that.
But history only remembers most what you did last.
And should that be fronting a segment that allowed a tobacco giant to crash this network?
Does it give someone, at my time of life, pause?
Yeah.
It's kind of like the longer you live, it's almost irrelevant what you did before.
It's still your last moment.
It's weird how your first and your last impression is a big part of your life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And by the way, you're going to be talking about him next season.
We'll probably be talking about him on The New World.
He was in The New World.
And then also, he was great in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
That's right.
That's a great movie, too.
Oh, man.
That pisses me off to this freaking day.
They didn't do The First Trolls with David Fincher.
Yeah.
One of the worst failed franchise attempts, but that's a whole other series of podcasts,
like the failed franchise, the movies that were intended to be a franchise starters, but
they didn't.
Yeah.
But the good thing about it, and I watched probably a year ago at this point, but I dug
out My Girl with the Dragon Tattoo Blu-ray and watched it.
I have a deal on Blu-ray, yeah.
And the good thing about it is it's a self-contained movie.
There's plot lines that are left, but overall, it doesn't have a cliffhanger.
No, you're right.
Well, at least you can sit down and watch it and enjoy it and be like, oh, man, what
could have been?
But at the same time, it works as a self-contained film as well.
I know they did do with the different characters.
They did do the trilogy.
Yeah, yeah.
Or they did the second one.
I think they did the trilogy.
Then they did it where they rebooted it with a fourth story.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But it was also done in Sweden before the Fincher version.
They did all three books as well.
But either way.
It's such a smart-looking film.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And in terms of the Blu-ray packaging, it's a really nice Blu-ray, too.
Yeah.
I have it on Blu-ray, too.
Yeah, yeah.
I like when the Blu-rays come in like a box.
I think Christopher Plum is great.
And it's cool that we're going to get to talk about him next season.
I know Russell is second in the credits, of course, under Al.
But let's talk about Al first.
Now, we just covered Al Pacino, of course.
The film previously was Heat.
Four years later, he's got Al again.
So, obviously, Al and Michael got along very well to work together again.
Part of the reason why this movie is so incredible.
Well, there's two reasons.
And we're going to talk about them right now.
One reason is Al Pacino.
It might be his best non-Godfather performance.
I think it might be.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because on the commentary track for Godfather Part 2, I believe it is,
Coppola talks about Pacino's intensity.
And as I was listening to the commentary track, I'm like, you could extrapolate this completely
to what Michael Mann had to deal with on the set of Heat.
And it kind of validated the fact that all of that shit we see from Al Pacino and Heat,
the high energy stuff, was Pacino.
Because Coppola pretty much speaks to his intensity as an actor on the commentaries for those three films.
100%.
What a well-written character.
I don't know how much of it was...
We didn't really see any Lowell Bergman behind the scenes, unfortunately.
No, it's funny.
In the 60 Minutes segment, there was nothing.
He's the producer, so he's behind the camera.
And then, of course, in the Vanity Fair piece, he's not referenced at all because they weren't really doing the 60 Minutes story.
But what a great character.
And Pacino is able to go through different levels of performing here.
And there's several dances that him and Crow do where Crow feels like he was burned or he was outed.
And Bergman, Pacino is like, hey, how does that make any effing sense that I'm going to not protect my source?
It would completely neuter my ability to do the job in the future.
I want to talk to you.
Good.
I want to talk to you.
This is my house.
I did not...
In front of my wife?
My kids?
I did not give you up to anything.
What business do we have?
To straighten something out with you.
Right here, right now.
You didn't mention my name.
You haven't talked to anybody about that.
Why, I'm Brana Williamson.
No, I spoke to him.
How do I know about Brana Williamson?
It happened just after I talked to him.
I do not like coincidences.
Well, I don't like paranoid accusations.
I'm a journalist.
Think.
Use your head.
How do I operate as a journalist?
By screwing the people who could provide me with information before they provided me with it.
You came all the way down here to tell me that?
No, I did not.
Big tobacco is a big story.
And you've got something important to say.
I can tell.
And yes, I did.
I came all the way down here to tell you.
Story.
No story.
Fuck your story.
I don't burn people.
And I also love seeing how he navigates the relationships that he's built over his career.
And we especially see it when I guess he's blowing off steam in Montana after everything happens.
And he sees those two FBI agents in that diner.
Hi.
So, what are you folks doing here in Lincoln?
Geology survey.
Geology?
Geology?
Huh?
Really?
How about you?
I work for CBS News.
Oh, yeah?
Just ran into two of your geologists.
Geologists whose hands aren't all chewed up.
Low.
Do not screw this up.
We are a week away from an arrest.
So, I'll hold it.
And?
We'll give you a heads up before we launch.
How long?
Three hours.
You get a deal.
He knows they're not geologists.
He knows they're not geologists.
He knows they're not geologists.
Yes.
I love it.
And he's able to leverage that information to get a scoop on when they were going to arrest the Unabomber.
And we also see him leverage those relationships with, what, reporters at the Wall Street Journal.
That's the thing I like about Michael Mann is you get to see people working and doing their job.
And it's really authentic.
And Pacino is 100% part of that.
There's a lot of subdued acting moments for Pacino in this, which is kind of unexpected for 1999.
Yeah, overall, just a killer, killer performance.
I agree with everything you're saying.
I know people are probably yelling at me, Ryan, what about Donnie Brasco?
Ryan, what about Carlito's way?
I think what it was.
Watching this, again, maybe for the, well, for the first time in 26 years at the very least.
So, I'm watching this.
And what I loved about this is because this isn't Donnie Brasco.
This isn't heat.
This isn't the devil's advocate.
His character, he was great in it.
But the way he chewed his gum and all this, pip, bop, bop, bop, grass, and all this other stuff.
Like, it's just, what I loved about this is, okay, he's acting, acting.
He's not playing those guys.
He's playing this producer on 60 Minutes.
And you see the compassion that Al portrays.
And, of course, he's portraying a real person who has this compassion for the source.
But that's what I loved.
There was no, like, give me all you got.
He didn't yell that at Dr. Weigand.
He goes, come here, you got.
He yells that at Russell Crowe's character.
He didn't yell once.
What I loved was the passion, sorry, the compassion and the passion for the job, for the news, when he fought for Dr. Weigand.
And I guess I just, maybe he met Lowell Bergman in real life.
I suspect he probably did.
Again, another case where he doesn't look anything like the real life Lowell Bergman.
But I'd like to think he captured his essence.
Yeah.
Probably halfway through the movie, I was, wow, this is, this is great.
Great.
This is why he's Al Pacino.
But it was just nice to see again, just be reminded of, not to say he's ever been bad.
But look, every actor kind of gets the movies that are like, really?
Simone, the recruit, 88 minutes, righteous kill.
I mean, look, I get it.
Like, it's a paycheck.
And I understand that.
But this might have been his last, I mean, granted, any given Sunday came out the same year.
So that was a really good year for him as well.
But I don't really think you can count what Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is too small of a role.
No, too small of a role, of course.
But it was just great to see this vibrant 58-year-old Al Pacino, peak acting career, just playing a very passionate, and just seeing him having compassion.
I know it's like, well, Ryan, of course, Al Pacino's probably a nice guy.
But he doesn't always play those characters.
So it was just nice to see him play a character who has compassion for his family.
Because he's telling Mike Walls, like, look, you know, like, Mike Walls is like, who is this guy?
What's his problem?
Talking about Dr. Y again.
And he's like, look, he's just a human in a very stressful time.
Who are these people?
Ordinary people under extraordinary pressure, Mike.
What the hell do you expect?
Grace and consistency?
We're asking a lot of him.
You're looking for a great story, but we're beating it out of a person who's trying to take care of his family.
I love that he humanizes his contacts.
Anyways, Al Pacino, 10 out of 10 on this.
And I know everyone talks Devils out.
Sorry, Donnie Brasco.
I guess Devils.
In Carlito's way.
Glenn Ross after Godfather.
I get it.
I just think man got out of Pacino.
That's the thing.
So whatever it was that happened in heat with Pacino and man,
that's what I'm asking.
Was it man saying Pacino, I want you to yell,
give me all you got and great ass?
Or do we see here man saying to Pacino, look,
that's not happening here.
I guess we'll never know because we get a subdued Pacino here.
Okay.
And now here we are, folks.
We have 34-year-old Russell Crowe.
34!
Yeah, he's younger than the real life character.
By about 15 years, I would say.
And Russell Crowe,
this is the first time we've gotten to talk about him together.
Boy, he's a good actor.
Yeah.
This was the year before Gladiator.
So if I saw this movie when it came out,
I would have seen it not knowing who the F Russell Crowe is.
I regret that I saw LA Confidential.
I was going to say, yeah.
But even then, I don't know.
Like, oh, this is the...
Maybe I did, but it still would have been like, oh, this guy's...
I guess he's in a couple movies now.
So he kind of came out of nowhere.
And then he was just like doing some incredible films.
He came out of what?
Australia?
Yeah.
He did a movie called Romper Stomper.
Yeah.
And then it was like Virtuosity with Denzel Washington.
Yeah.
He was in that.
Yeah.
And LA Confidential was really like, I think...
That was his critical breakthrough, wasn't it?
Yeah.
It's surprising that this is before Gladiator because once Gladiator came out,
just put a rocket on his back.
And then also just start running through all of the list of cliches that hot actors go through
where he's beating people up with phones.
He's starting his own rock bands.
He's getting fat.
You know, like just check all the boxes, you know.
Come on.
Before we get to...
And I love him.
He's in one of my favorite movies.
He's in The Nice Guys, which is just, you know, just probably one of the best films of the last
10 years and also one of the best PI films ever made.
So I'm a Russell Crowe guy, but he's definitely...
He's more in line with Marlon Brando than he is Al Pacino when it comes to being an actor.
But in terms of him in this movie, they gave him the white hair to sort of resemble Wygand.
And the real Jeffrey Wygand has that like cherub-like face.
Yeah.
Like kind of puffy.
He captured his essence.
His cadence, I think he had.
I don't think the voice was really spot on, but the cadence was there.
Okay.
But the other thing I really liked is the bravado that was there, but it was like a not confident
bravado.
And there was a great scene where he runs out of the house and he falls down his front
lawn.
Sorry.
And that sold the character for me.
You could tell he was a very smart person because there's even the sequence where the FBI is after
he finds the bullet in his mailbox.
They're talking about his guns and he talks about it's still legal to own guns and he uses them
for target shooting and all that kind of stuff.
And he keeps them in the safe.
And of course he owns a 357.
Did you handle the round, Mr. Wygand?
Yes, I'm afraid I did.
We won't be able to lift usable prints.
Do you own a gun, Mr. Wygand?
A gun?
Yes.
What caliber is your gun?
What caliber is my gun?
Yes, sir.
What caliber is your gun?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
You think I put the bullet in the mailbox myself?
If we could take a look, Mr. Wygand.
How do you keep this gun?
I don't think it's unconstitutional yet to own a gun.
I'm a target shooter.
That bullet was for a .38 caliber.
Do you own a .38?
Yes, I do.
A .38 target master, my gun safe downstairs, a .45 gold cup, a .22 target pistol.
So what?
Do you have a history of emotional problems, Mr. Wygand?
Yes.
Yes, I do.
Yes.
I get extremely emotional when assholes put bullets in my mailbox.
I like the fact that it wasn't arrogance.
It was more self-assuredness.
But at the same time, he put on a little bit of an air of a false bravado.
It's a very, very nuanced, layered performance.
If you're serving up Russell Crowe performances to give him his Lifetime Achievement Award,
this is definitely one of those.
Another phenomenal scene for both actors is at the end,
when Bergman calls the hotel and says,
hey, I want you to do a wellness check on this guest.
And I think it's Roger Bart plays the hotel.
Yeah.
Famous in Desperate Housewives.
Wasn't he on Desperate Housewives?
Yeah.
Also Hostel.
Oh.
Right.
I don't think anybody really talks about Hostel anymore, though.
Or Hostel, too.
Sure.
But either way, you see that where he's just sitting there.
Yeah.
Coming to terms with how his life ended up where it is.
And then there's that final trigger where Bergman says, tell him to get out here and get on the fucking phone.
And it's like a switch goes off and he opens the door and he gets on the phone.
And there's that whole confrontation between the two of them.
It's like a powder keg.
You manipulated me into this.
That's bullshit, Jeff.
You greased the rails.
I greased the rails for a guy who wanted to say yes.
I helped him to say yes.
That's all.
You're not a robot, Jeff.
You got a mind of your own, don't you?
Up to you, Jeffrey.
That's the power you have, Jeffrey.
Vital insider information the American public need to know.
Lowell Bergman, the hotshot who never met a source he couldn't turn around.
I fought for you and I still fight for you.
You fought for me?
You manipulated me into where I am now.
Staring at the Brown and Williamson building, it's all dark except the 10th floor.
That's the legal department.
That's where they fuck with my life.
Jeffrey, where you going with this?
So, where you going?
You are important to a lot of people, Jeffrey.
You think about that.
You think about them.
I'm running out of heroes, man.
Guys like you are in short supply.
Yeah, guys like you too.
It's really, really hard to pull off because it's a silent performance until it isn't.
I thought Russell was amazing in this film.
Like, honestly.
And if you look at the picture of Jeffrey Wigand at the time, I think he nailed the look and the manner.
I know you maybe don't feel as strong as I did.
I watched that 60 minutes and I was looking at the way the mouth, the way he did the mouth.
No, no.
He definitely did.
And I'm a big fan of not just miming somebody's performance.
No, he still was.
I think if you capture their essence.
Right.
And their cadence.
Joaquin Phoenix doesn't look anything like Johnny Cash.
But he pulled off Johnny Cash and walked the line.
The same thing happened here.
He looks enough like him to do it.
But more capturing the essence of the character is really where it's at.
Yeah.
I was watching this thinking this is a 34-year-old, still kind of unknown actor.
He just came out of nowhere.
He had the bit role in The Quick and the Dead.
Yes.
And then he was in Virtuosity, as you mentioned.
But then LA Confidential, I think, was his breakthrough American sort of critical role.
Then nothing really happened.
Then he was in Mystery Alaska, which is awesome.
Oh, yeah.
That was a Jay Roach hockey film.
Yeah.
But then Gladiator, of course.
After that, you're right.
Like, let's be honest.
Gladiator is one of the greatest movies ever made.
I love it so much.
And then Proof of Life, Beautiful Mind, Master Commander, Cinderella Man, 310 to Yuma.
Like, please.
Are you kidding me?
American Gangster.
Like, I know.
And then it's sort of sporadic between the nice guys.
And then they're like, what?
He was Jor-El in Man of Steel, too, wasn't he?
Yeah, he did.
Speaking of Superman, I thought he did a fine job playing.
Yeah.
And then also, he was supposed to be in the Universal's Dark Universe that began and ended with Tom Cruise's The Mummy.
He was supposed to be Mr. Hyde, right?
He was supposed to be Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
That's right.
Talk about movies that were meant to build a franchise that didn't work.
Yeah.
We love Tom Cruise's The Mummy in this house, by the way.
Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
It's wild to think of what that dark universe could have been.
But we were robbed of a full-on Russell Crowe, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type movie.
I don't know how Tom would have been able to.
It still made $410 million at the box office, but that's just not enough to start a franchise, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, Russell was amazing.
Amazing career.
I thought he was just revolutionary in this film.
I still just couldn't believe this was the film before Gladiator.
Yeah.
He was just flying in all cylinders as an actor.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
There you go.
Michael Mann's The Insider.
I didn't do this with Ed Zwick.
I didn't kind of say where my rankings were as I was going through the film.
It's not that I should or shouldn't, but I think as far as a film goes, at his sixth film,
I feel like here he's really, Michael Mann has really mastered directing and writing.
Well, yeah.
The other thing I wanted to talk about is, and I've talked about it, is why I think De Palma
is such a great filmmaker is because he can make any kind of movie.
And at the same time, here you've got Michael Mann who made in one of the most well-regarded
action films of all time with Heat.
And then he makes it, his next film is basically a drama with no action per se.
There's action-like moments in the movie, but it's a talking movie.
Even the studio knew that the audience for this was going to be people over 40.
Yeah.
Oh, there you go.
So that's what I mean.
I saw it when I was 24.
I admit, a 24-year-old brain is different than a 50-year-old brain.
It really is.
I admit, I don't get excited by action films.
Well, I did when I was younger because I'm just older and softer now.
And so I was watching this wholly engaged.
I was not bored at all.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm glad I was able to watch it a second time because it had been like three weeks and I
was like, shit, I'm not going to be able to really talk about the movie as well as I
want.
This was one of the movies, when I moved cross-country, I sold about 60 of my DVDs for
whatever reason.
I mean, transporting your entire life cross-country, you have to make some decisions.
And this was a movie that didn't make the cross-country move with me because I had it on DVD.
And for whatever reason, when I moved, I was like, oh, it was part of the 60 that I went
to FYE and got $22 for or whatever.
But either way, watching it for the second time, I was like, man, this is just a really...
It's a good, well-made movie.
And it's also really engaging.
And it's an easy movie to watch.
I totally agree.
Boy, what a fun, fun film to watch.
Again, if you haven't seen it, folks, we haven't really ruined anything.
It's based on a true story all the same.
To see how it's presented, how this interview...
In fact, when the interview was given in the movie, it happened.
The interview happened, what, the first 40 minutes of the film?
Yeah.
There's like two hours of film left.
And I'm like, what?
Why are we already here with the interview?
Oh, that's why.
I'm glad you mentioned that, Ryan.
Because I did want to touch on the fact that another thing that Michael Mann is really strong
at, and I think we have to give Eric Roth credit here too, is they took a very, very complex
story and structured it in a way that made sense and was a well-told narrative.
But at the same time, the last 40 minutes of the movie, the shift really goes from Russell Crowe to Al Pacino, from Wygand to...
The last 40 minutes of the movie is really Bergman's movie.
I don't know that there's a lot of filmmakers that could have that sort of lead shift happen without it feeling jarring.
Here it felt natural.
But if you're breaking the movie down, you're like, wow, it's Russell Crowe is barely in that.
Right.
Oh, yeah.
I remember that.
That last 40 minutes, except for that big hotel scene.
And it really becomes Bergman's story or whatever.
And that's really hard to pull off from a writing perspective, but also from a narrative directing and storytelling, visual storytelling perspective as well.
All around, it's just a great movie.
It got seven Oscar nominations, unfortunately.
Yeah, it did.
It didn't win any.
But you know what?
I'll say this.
I kind of get that.
Not to say it doesn't deserve it, but I'm glad that Lisa was recognized for that because some of these films that are like this, they're very...
I hate the term talky, but it can almost be a stage play in some of these scenes.
And so I'm glad that Lisa was recognized for that.
And it didn't win, but boy, it definitely deserves to be nominated for sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Well, the next film that we're covering, if you can believe it, is Ali, I think is the next one.
Isn't that weird?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ali.
Full disclosure, I've never seen Ali.
Are you going to watch it now to listen to the review?
Of course.
Yeah, yeah.
But as big of a fan as Michael Mann I am, for whatever reason, that movie just didn't...
It didn't scream like I need to go see it.
I missed it in the theater for whatever reason, and I just have never sat down and watched it.
The older I've gotten, and granted, this came out when I was younger, but the older I've gotten, the less and less interested in biopics I've become.
Can you just give me a good documentary?
I don't need the impersonation.
Yeah, okay.
Fair enough.
Well, we just watched the biopic, though, Craig.
Yeah, no, but I mean...
I guess it's not a biopic so much.
Yeah.
It's a true event.
It's a true event.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But the Bob Dylan movie.
I'm a huge Bob Dylan fan.
I still have yet to see a complete unknown.
You know what?
I haven't seen that yet, either.
I still haven't seen Rocket Man.
I still haven't seen the Queen one.
I admit, I'm kind of the same way.
I'm like, I grew up with...
Maybe because we're getting old, we kind of grew up with these careers.
I grew up with Queen.
I've grown up with...
Yeah.
Actually, I would say Rocket Man is definitely worth watching because it's partially a musical.
And as an Elton John movie, it captures Elton John.
And I'll say this about Bob Dylan as well.
There was a couple of...
15 years ago at this point, there was a movie called I'm Not There, which was a quote-unquote Bob Dylan biopic where four different actors played him.
Heath Ledger played him.
Richard Gere played him.
Cate Blanchard played him.
For me, that's a Bob Dylan biopic.
So when A Complete Unknown came out, I was like, this is just too on the nose and direct for Bob Dylan.
But is it about when he goes electric?
Is that what this one's about?
It is.
Yeah.
And I have the book.
Oh.
I actually have the book.
I can show it off here.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Dylan goes electric right there.
If you watch A Complete Unknown, it's based on this book.
Oh, wow.
But yeah, for whatever reason, like I said, I would rather just watch a really good documentary.
Well, if we cover James Mangold's filmography, I'm going to make you do that movie with me.
To make you watch it.
Yeah.
Well, no.
Also, he did Walk the Line as well.
I know.
He did.
Can you believe that came out 20 years ago?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that movie's new, Craig.
Don't say it came out.
It's still new.
It's a new film.
Yeah.
Actually, Mangold would be interesting because he did Copland.
Yeah.
You know, he did Rogan.
Yeah.
It's weird.
We got some Wolverine films and then we have Copland.
He's had an interesting career.
Well, yes.
The next film is Ali.
So make sure you guys check that out.
I'll be out in a couple of weeks after this release.
So again, Craig, thank you so much for coming on.
Where can people find you?
Pretty much here on the network.
And if you Google Craig Cohen music, you can find a link to all the kinds of stuff I've done.
My music, my podcasting, some video projects I've done.
A lot of different stuff.
But I always enjoy sitting down, Ryan, and having the opportunity to be a guest because it takes all of the weight off my shoulders.
And all I have to do is show up.
And I actually would like to sort of pat myself on the back here that I came for this episode a little bit more prepared than I normally am.
You're great.
That's fantastic.
Because I actually feel like I came unprepared.
I don't know why.
I don't know why.
You sent me that 60 Minutes piece.
I sent you the Vanity Fair piece.
So we were both doing our own independent research.
But either way, this was great.
And hopefully somebody listening to this that hadn't thought about watching The Insider, like I said, here in the States, it's on Hulu currently.
So you can watch it there.
Awesome.
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