The Director's Chair Network

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Welcome ladies and gentlemen who are watching and or listening to the director's chair. And in this director's
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chair we will look at Paul Ferhovven. My guest at this time the legendary Craig
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Cohen. Craig, how are you doing today? I'm good, Sego. Thank you. Uh, it's always a pleasure to to chat with you
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and more importantly, it's a true pleasure to uh talk the legendary Paul
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Verhovven. Uh, he was a big big uh
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director that I was a fan of when I really started to get into, you know, the the I really really got into with,
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you know, Tarantino. Uh yeah, and maybe like Steven Soderberg.
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Um but yeah, what made him stand out to you? The audacity. I mean, and and I think
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that was the main thing that like I think the European sensibilities and just the audacity, I think, is a good
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word, but you know, you know, no hang-ups, so violence was on the table,
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sex was on the table. uh an overall rawness
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uh but also that sense of satire and I think that's one thing that a lot of people miss with with Verhovven. It's
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amazing to me that somebody can watch like Robocop or even more importantly Starship Troopers and not see the
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satire. Um uh and of course Showgirls isn't a satire on purpose, but
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it kind it's kind of thought of. You have to be it's there's tits everywhere. Um so I made this compiled this little
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list because obviously unlike you you came into contact with Paul for Hovind
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probably around 1985 maybe 1987. 1985 was when Flesh and Blood came out that
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came out in the United States and then 1987 of course was Robocop which basically put him on the map.
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Yeah. And I grew up with Paul for Hovind. Um he
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was the premier director in the country and there was no film industry until
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Paul Verhovven started making movies. That's basically it. He started making movies in the early '7s and he was a big
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part of what was then the Dutch sexual revolution which basically he would just you know make movies to shock people uh
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spice everything up uh because he thought it was all boring and unrealistic and and
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everything was geared towards showing the lives of u doctors and and people of
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the elites. And basically what Paul Verhovven did in his Dutch cinema was basically show what life was like for
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Dutch people, the regular ones, the ones who within go to big schools like he did cuz um people may not know this, but he
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was actually he's actually he has holds master degrees in math and physics.
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So he's a Sheldon basically and it shows whenever you see footage of him
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directing. Mhm. Yeah. He probably has a bathroom schedule. Anyway, so I I made this little compiled
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this little list of um all the complaints people have had about Paul
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Verhovven in Holland over the years. And I was kind of curious to see if this
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holds up compared to your many critics who complain about Paul Verhovven. So
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the critics complain that he's an iconoclast. Number two, he's not a moralist. Most
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movie makers are moralists. He is absolutely not a moralist. All his movies are just bereft of kind of
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any kind of personal opinion. He just shows it for what it is. It's like, hey, I'm making a movie about Nazis and
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they're pretty young people and they go to war. Uh, one of them actually causes
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the war. And so he makes no comment on that. So people assume, oh, because he's not a moralist, he must be the Nazi
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then. That's not exactly true, is it? So, three, he is absolutely obsessed
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with Jesus of Nazareth. Obsessed. He even wrote a book about it. And in all
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his movies, including this one, there is something about Jesus. There is or a in
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this case, there's no Jesus whatsoever because Jesus would not be in Las Vegas
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except to cuddle all the strippers and kick everybody out of the casino because they're users or whatever they are.
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Anyway, so Holland is a artist town,
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right? Over the centuries, we've had quite a few. We've had Rembrandt and we've had Vincent F and Mlan and we had
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a bunch. So throughout the ages, artists like this choose a medium to express
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themselves. And that's something people don't get. This is a artist who absconded his
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parents wishes to become a mathematician in some high school. Instead, he chose
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art. And his art, his canvas was film. Because, as he always argued, if you're
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an artist and you're living in the 20th century, you wouldn't paint. You would have moving pictures. And that's
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something people don't realize. He's painting. His movies are art.
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Yeah. So that would be my top five. So I'm kind of interested in did did this any of this resonate
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with any of the critics throughout his career in the United States.
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I I don't think the films that Verhovven made in America
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really engaged critics enough for them to get deep into his film making uh
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process if you will. I think the only film that really probably got any serious
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critical attention and you know critics at least got the theme behind it was was
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probably Starship Troopers. But aside from that, I mean, I I don't really remember
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critics giving Verhovven any kind of uh consideration
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probably beyond the films he had made prior to coming to America. Uh and it's
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funny because you know, you look at a film like Robocop and it's it's a it's a movie Verhovven famously didn't want to
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make. And uh like most great decisions uh we make in this life, his wife convinced him to uh cuz she clearly saw
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the you know the potential in the script. But I I I think the the main thing that I think
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the gig I think the main thing that that that that critics really didn't didn't get was that like you know
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Robocop not directed by Verhovven. Um it's a very very different film and I
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think that kind of dubtales you see that in the sequels. Yeah. Oh no absolutely. I mean there's one Robocop in my opinion.
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Yeah. And and it's funny because I think it kind of dubtales into Showg Girls in the sense that
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no other filmmaker could have made Showg Girls for good or for bad. U and and I think Joe Essterhos
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definitely needs to be part of this conversation because no other filmmaker uh or screenwriter could have written
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the film. And I do want to sort of get in front of this right away and say by
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no means am I saying that Showg Girls is a great film, but at the same time I'm going to say that I think a lot of
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people consider it a bad film without really taking the time to consider it. And I
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want to say that's fine if if if you think this is Showgirl is a bad movie. It's completely your prerogative.
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That's always a personal taste. Exactly. But I think it, you know, it kind of became a punching bag. Uh, and
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again, by no means am I going to Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And it, and it's actually, it's actually a a shame
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more than anything else because if you look at it, um, I don't know what the rating system over there is like,
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but I mean, here we've got, you know, the G, PG, PG-13r. And when Showg Girls was coming out,
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there was a big discussion about, you know, creating a rating that would allow
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for more intense film making, you know, and not be X-rated, which was
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The Kiss of Death. So, they came up with this NC I I looked into this. This was purposely
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NC7. Yes. And and and ironically, the most expensive NC17
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movie ever made. Well, because yeah, because this pretty much killed
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the NC17 rating from a theatrical exhibition perspective. I mean, there
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were even, you know, theaters that refused to carry it anyway. Um, and I
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think the whole thing was a, you know, Yeah. And and and it's it's funny because if you watch the movie
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and and I don't know if it's it's it's just the fact that I don't really watch movies through that
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lens, but I mean there's nothing in this film that
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doesn't seem any more extreme than what you'd see in a typical R-rated film.
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I don't think so. But this movie, this movie got people's feathers ruffled
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and that was the whole point. That's what Paul Forhovven does. That's
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Yeah. Well, and I think that's what makes him happy in some way. I still think he wants recognition and I still think he wants
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people to see his art for what it is, but in reality, I think he does this stuff and he dials it up to 10 because
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that's what he's doing here. He's dialing it up. I mean, every bit everything he does is hyperbolic. Everything from the lighting to the way
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it's shot to uh the way the shots are panned, uh all the noise to all the tits
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everywhere, the full frontal nudity, the way the dialogue is clipped because it's all very clipped dialogue. I don't know
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if you've noticed, but it's not like people have long stretched out sentences. This isn't the king's speech,
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right? So, this is all on purpose. This is all Paul Verhovven trying to show you
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what Las Vegas is really like. It's not your dream. It is a sex industry. It's
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brutal. And it's a a m an industrial machine to turn uh your vices into money
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for the people who own it. And that's what this entire movie is about.
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And yeah, who functions in that? Well, and that's the main critique that I liked uh that I
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think Paul Farhovven likes as well is like the the it's almost you could put it as a tagline for the movie show
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girls. It's about surviving in a world populated by [ __ ]
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because that's what it is. Everybody in that movie is an absolute [ __ ] except one person.
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Yep. Molly. Molly. And that's interesting
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um because we all know Verhovven and we all know how he works with dreams and how he kind of messes with reality. You
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never know if it's real or not. You never know if if the m if the protagonist is is because they're always
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unreliable. All all his protagonists are all unreliable. Robocop is an unreliable
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narrator because he gets switched off, right? Uh Total Recall, Doug has
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basically been brainwashed. He's unreliable. uh basic instincts. Shooter is drunk all the time,
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right? The Michael Douglas's character. He's drunk all the time. He's unreliable. I mean, he gets into bed
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with a serial killer. He's nuts, right? And ironically, what people complain
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about about Show Girls, you know, the the way people are screaming at each other and how it's all so unrealistic.
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Okay, so look at Basic Instinct, which is considered a genre classic. They're
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doing the same thing. That's just his style. That's just you have to accept it. It's just Paul Verhovven films it
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this way. It's just going to happen and nobody's going to tell him different because Paul Verhovven is the master of his own art. There's no way. And of
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course this is Paul Verhovven at the height at the peak of very peak of his powers, right? He had hit after hit
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after hit. So now he gets to make the movie he wants to make. That's always typical of great directors, right? They
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they they build on their legacy and then finally they get to make a movie that is just so ambitious that they're scared of
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it and it's something them.
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Yeah. Well, every name a director, they've all done this. It's they all have like this this
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Yeah. Titanic of a movie. Yeah. Well, no. And that's the most remarkable thing about this movie is
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because I'm always amazed that this movie even
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got made at the level it got made. It's it's a big budget exploitation movie at
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the end of the day. And the fact that on purpose Verhovven and uh Esther House were able
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to sell MGM on this idea, that must have been a heck of a pitch meeting. And you
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know, I think a lot of it is I think very simply Paul Hovind was
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printing money. Well, yeah. Well, no, especially, you know, all he had to do was say, "Hey, Joe Hester House is a great script. It's
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going to be out show about Show Girls in Vegas." They were like, "How much money do you need?"
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Yeah. How much money do you need? I mean, after Robocop, after Total Recall, after
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u Basic Instinct, how much money do you need, Paul? We love your stuff because you're making us rich. I think that's
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and then they got the final product and I mean there was some scuttlebutt before
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of course because he actually negotiated to get the NC17 rating because he wanted to make
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a movie like this. Yeah. He wanted to make a big budget movie that was for adults.
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Yeah. This wasn't for kids. It's not intended for kids. It's not intended for for um the weak of heart
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because it's a serious subject to him, a very serious subject because this is basically about uh exploiting women and
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there's a theme, a common thread throughout all his movies from the very first which was about prostitution in in
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the red light district to the last one he's made up till now which is Benadeta.
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It's always about violence against women. He's depicting it. And this one is kind
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of in the middle. And if you look at it from the first one to Benardeta, it fits
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right in the theme. Yeah. It just fits right in. It's just the way he sees it. And it's like, okay, this is
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what I'm going to make. I'm not going to make anything else. And when he does make something other people want that
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he's not all on board in, then you get Hollow Man. Yeah.
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Yeah. Which which I will cover at some point. Yeah. Oh, show girls. Yeah. Okay. So,
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basically what he did was he said, "Okay, um, instead of paying me 7
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million, just give me points on the back end, right?" Which is smart because this movie made a ton of money. That's
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something people don't want to admit to because they're always clamoring, well, you know, it did bad at the box office.
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It didn't do bad at the box office. It wasn't in enough theaters. It was only in 1300 theaters when there was a
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at that time you had like 2500 to 3,000 right? So it still came in second on opening
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weekend behind seven. If it had had all the theaters it would have still been in second place
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but it would have made more money opening weekend and then it would have made its money back easy because it
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would have been break even right out of the gate. But a phenomenon called licensing and
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distribution which is like uh hard copy sales of VH test tapes and DVD sales and
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Blu-ray shows a very different picture. This is the one of the if not the best seller for MGM. This makes more money
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than Bond. This is there are like a 100 million in the plus. So Paul for Hovind
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did okay on this and when people claim yeah it was a failure critical failure really all I
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mean that was his intention to piss off the critics that's why he made a movie like this right why else would you
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otherwise he would have put stuff in there like he would have made it Oscar bait he could have made it very tragic
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right and then it would have been Oscar bait but it's not instead we got what we got because Fhovven loves this
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Yeah. And and and I think the the the biggest
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historical complaint with this movie uh and Verhovven has since sort of gone on
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record and taken full ownership of this and and apologized um
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is really Elizabeth Berkeley's performance. Poor Beth. Poor Beth.
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And I Yeah. A and I think that's sort of what really
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redirects this movie into, for lack of a better word, like camp territory.
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And it it's funny because anytime you watch a performance in a movie, and we
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talked about this on Ryan's Michael Man coverage with uh Al Puccini,
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uh especially in Heat, is when an actor is doing something,
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uh there's two things going on. Either it's at the director's sort of suggestion or the director's okay with
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it. In the case of Showgirls, it was a spec specific performance he wanted
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Elizabeth Berkeley to deliver. Otherwise, he would have either fired
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her or she would have had to do a new take because he's famous for that. He would keep you in the room for two days.
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Yeah, he's done that. Well, well, well, and the the problem the problem here, though, is
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this movie pretty much ended Berkeley's mainstream film career.
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So, you can't even say go back and look and let her work sort of speak for her abilities as an actress because nobody's
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ever really gotten to see it Beyonce by the Bell, you know? So, it's it's kind of funny that like uh
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Well, she was in the first Wives Club. Well, yeah. And she actually got good reviews for that. So, not really that.
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But I mean, but I mean, if you ask the average Joe on the street, you know, they're they're going to say not a good
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actress. But I mean, it it's it's funny though when you watch when you watch the
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movie, obviously, she was 100% committed to the performance. Uh, it's a very
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physical performance. Um, I I'm not Yeah. Well, yeah. And I'm not a dancer
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and I, you know, I don't I don't have the the eye to to sort of, you know, be beyond establishing if somebody's got
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rhythm or not, but, you know, all the talk about her being a natural a natural talent and things like that, I buy it.
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Um, Sure. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it it's funny that like the the cheapest shot
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somebody can take of this movie is is is the performances and I think if you want to explain Elizabeth
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Berkeley's performance, you have to explain the theme of this movie
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and then you get into vague territory because this whole thing might just be a dream. This might just be a dream of a
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hooker somewhere who dreams about going to Las Vegas and making it as a
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showgirl. Because if you really look at what happens to her throughout the story, which is kind of
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disjointed in many ways, everybody's out together, right?
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Everybody is is is an adversary except the one person who isn't.
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and she basically has to like do whatever she can, exploit anybody she
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possibly can, gain any advantage she can get in order to get ahead and to win.
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And when she finally wins, she realizes people still think I'm a [ __ ] Because
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that's the theme of this movie. It's about a a girl who doesn't want to be a prostitute anymore. And this is her
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dream. At least she thinks she can escape from that life and from her past
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by reinventing herself as this star showg girl. And it could all be a dream
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because it ends the way it begins even with the same guy because that's how the movie starts.
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It's a girl. She looks good in jeans. She sticks out her thumb to hitchhike.
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It's somewhere, I don't know, in the Rocky Mountain somewhere. I don't know where it is. Looked cold. And so this
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dude picks her up, right? And the minute she gets in the car, she kind of sees
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kind of sizes him up. It's like, what? Who am I getting in the car with? Is he Is he going to cut me into little pieces? Uh, what does he want? Right? Is
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it am I just getting a ride here? And so the minute he says something she
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doesn't like, she whips out a switchblade. And that's the introduction of the character. And that's also the ending of
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the movie. So, this is either a dream or this character because this is a
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character-driven movie because this is not a story. Not really. It's nonsense. It's a child childish dream.
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I This character has no no arc. There's no learning curve here. There's nothing. There's when you start and when you
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finish, it's basically the same thing. It's like the girl learns nothing. Okay, I'm coming into this town to stop being
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a [ __ ] but this town is all about exploiting her as a prostitute.
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That's the theme of the movie. So for Hovind specifically directed her to have this
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reaction to everybody, right? Everybody she meets, she's as soon as she finds this person
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objectionable in some way, they treat her like a piece of meat,
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she just goes off. She just turns into um evil [ __ ] But the minute these
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people are nice to her and see something in her like, oh, you might be you might have some talent or you might be a star or you might you're you're you might be
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a lot nicer than than you look. Then she becomes this like almost childlike like
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like um almost giddy little girl like this teenager who just wants to eat
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potato chips and have hamburgers and enjoy herself, right? So there's this like extreme and in my opinion
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those reactions, you have those basic reactions when you're dreaming.
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So that's what I think is going on here. It's just it's not on the nose
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and usually Forhovven is a little bit more on the nose with things. Robocop is on the nose. I'm making a movie about uh
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Jesus. That's what Robocop is. It's about the resurrection of Jesus. It's about a guy. He gets crucified and he's
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resurrected as a robot and he he um becomes something else and finally he
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finds himself and becomes Jesus of Nazareth. That's for Hovven's obsession.
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Same with Total Recall. It's a dream. Duck Wade in reality is probably in some
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hospital getting lobtomized as we talked about it, you know, when we talked about this movie. So, same here. So, here's
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Elizabeth Berkeley being lambasted for being a bad actress and she's not lambasted for anything else because this
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this this chick is hot. I mean, um, this is one of the most beautiful women I've
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ever seen on screen ever. This girl can take her clothes off and
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she's perfect. Yeah. And that's what Verhovven saw. He's painting a nude. What do artists do?
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They paint nudes. But when it's a painting, then everybody's admiring it. It's like, "Oh, they're worshiping this
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this nude." But when it's a moving picture, then it's somehow dirty, wrong. the actress's fault.
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Interesting reaction. And that's what Paul Forhovven was after in my opinion.
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Yeah. Well, no. And it's it's interesting, too, because one of the sort of things that lends credence to
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your theory is that for all the [ __ ] she brings to situations,
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people just can't help but embrace her and bring her in and try and give her um
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give her opportunities where at the end of the day, you'd be like, "Yes." Yeah. You know what? You know, it's just
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easier not to deal with this [ __ ] You know what I mean? like and the fact that you know she's the center of everyone's universe
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does lend credence to this but at the same time I' I'd like to say sort of that
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it's interesting and and it's one of the things that I think is is uh the most interesting thing about the
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collaborations between Esther Hos and Verhovven is
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uh Esther Hos has never been a subtle screenwriter you know um he's kind of a
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a beach over over the head type of guy. Um, I I I I love him as a screenwriter and
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and I think he's an important part of the Hollywood screenwriter story. Um, and it's kind of unfortunate that a lot
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of screenwriters didn't sort of take the lead from him and really fight for themselves and and fight for the art of
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screenwriting and and fight for their place in in telling stories. Uh, Esther House at one point was the
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highest paid screenwriter ever. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that um
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you know it's it's funny because I think a lot of screenwriters resented him uh and that's and that's probably why uh
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but he earned every cent of every you know dollar that he made. But the funny
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thing I think is with with Verhovven and and Esther Hos as a as a filmmaking
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partnership, if you will, is the way that Verhovven interprets Esther
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Hos's scripts. Um, and it's funny because, um, it's been a while since I've read it, but um,
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Esther Hos has written a couple of biographies or autobiographies. Uh, one of them is American Animal. Um,
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right. and or Holly W what's it called? Hollywood Animal. I think Hollywood Elm
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either way. And he goes into detail, heavy detail about all of his films, including Basic Instinct and Showg
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Girls. And you know, he's very much on the record as not agreeing with some of the choices that Verhovven made, but uh
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which is funny because like you said, Verhovven's interpretation adds
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a level to the film that wouldn't have been there if another director had picked up the script and made it. Uh but
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at the same time, Esther Hos was writing a script that he knew Verhovven was gonna direct. So, uh
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so yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were in cahoots. They were giddy with this stuff. It's
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obvious. I It shows it obviously. Here's an interesting thing. When asked Verhovven at some
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point said well if you look at Ingmar Burkeman movies Ingmar Burkeman always said that film
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making is always instinct everything you do is instinct you make choices and
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those choices are whatever they are and here's the mathematician saying this
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it's like there's nothing you to calculate here you just go with your goods and so he says throughout through
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this movie I learned that you know I'm right 80% of the time, not 100.
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I mean, if you look at how he started and and what if it's just started, if he
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how he how he made his start in the States, it was with Robocop and they had like this huge problem
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finding the right actor, right? Because the studios wanted Schwarzenegger because they were thinking Terminator.
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And he said, and obviously he's like, "No, it's not going to work because because of the suit. we need a really
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thin guy otherwise he won't fit in the suit. So they were like yeah yeah yeah so at some point Michael Ironside you
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know because for Hovven always wanted to work with him and so and they ended up with Weller
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probably for the same reason why they ended up with Elizabeth Berkeley uh an
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unknown and probably the same reason why they picked Gina Gerson. Um, American actors
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have a hard time getting it, have a hard time understanding what Paul Forhovven
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wants. And that's how you make a movie work. It's is a director
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uh convincing his actors what kind of movie they're in. And once they know
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what movie they're in, then it's fine. Then they find their character. Um, and
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in in the case of Gina Gershan, it's obvious because she carries this movie,
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right? Her her she's really convincing as Crystal and she's like the the
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nemesis slash older sister slash whatever it is. It's it's um the main
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character is basically looking at her future as a showgirl when she looks at Crystal. And at first she looks at her
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and thinks, "Wow, she's a goddess. That's what I want." But that's now how Crystal is acting
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throughout this, right? She always has this like kind of like a sardonic little smile and she doesn't really take
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anything seriously. And like everyone else, she's looking for a way out in
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that Verhovven has a great gift for casting the right people.
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And people complain about Elizabeth Berkeley, but I think she was perfectly cast for this because that's precisely
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the person he wanted. Someone who seems somehow innocent
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but also completely completely evil. Because if you look at the actions of
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Nomi and we'll get into the name in a minute. If you look at her actions,
31:12
she's not a really good person, is she? There's nothing in her actions that are,
31:18
you know, remotely redeemable from the get-go. I mean, she whips out a
31:23
a a switchblade at a person giving her a ride. I'd kick her out of the car.
31:31
Excuse me, could you leave the car, please? Well, yeah. And then also even right to
31:38
bear arms. Yeah. And then even her her first interactions with Molly who's like
31:44
genuinely showing her kindness and she she does everything she can to to be
31:49
like you know get the response of like why should I help you like yeah the only innocent person in the
31:56
entire film and she which kind of gave me pause
32:01
because I I you can sort of take it as okay she's the token victim right
32:07
because they have to show this this everybody's evil and so someone will suffer right and you need a example to
32:16
make this point or Molly doesn't exist
32:22
Molly is an aspect of Nomi's character the innocent part
32:28
that gets raped the part that gets taken advantage of because they meet uh after
32:35
her ride uh loses her luggage cuz the guy she was with stolen. And she
32:43
freaks out and she doesn't just freak out. I mean, she just has a tantrum, which is weird when you think about it.
32:49
And so she starts beating on someone's car and that's Molly's little car. And
32:54
somehow this Molly takes pity on her and buys her junk food. And apparently couple of weeks later, slash cut, she's
33:02
living in Molly's trailer home and she's going to work. work is stripping, which I suspect,
33:11
considering how good she looks on stage, she had been doing for a while, not just in Vegas, but somewhere else. She just
33:18
moved to Vegas because that's where you make your money as a stripper, right? That's stripper Valhalla.
33:24
And that's what this movie is. It's a kind of a documentary about
33:31
sex Valhalla in America, right? You go to Vegas to go to strip bars and to see naked
33:38
women and to gamble and to have lots of food and then you leave and whatever
33:44
happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. That's the saying, right? Yeah. Well, that's what our friend for Hovind
33:49
is showing you. It's like this is this is what you're doing. This is the industry. This is these women are are
33:57
basically meat for the grinder and they're not nice people because if you
34:02
survive in an industry like that, if you somehow thrive in it, then well, this is what it
34:09
takes. This is the kind of character you have cuz know me. And here comes the
34:15
name. It's not her real name, of course. She's reinventing herself. And why know me? Why not Naomi? Well, know me.
34:24
You have to know me. You must see me for who I really am because I am not a
34:30
prostitute. You must know me. I am a talented dancer. I am know so know me.
34:36
And she gets angry with every character in the movie that doesn't know her that just sees the
34:43
prostitute and the people that sort of try to know her
34:48
like uh the bouncer guy who hits on her all the entire movie. She has a kind of
34:54
well okay let's see what this really is and she sort of push pulls him you know to see if he's relationship material and
35:00
of course obviously he proves he isn't but know me is basically her way of
35:06
saying to people uh you have to look past the surface and that's what Hovind
35:11
is doing with this movie look past the surface look past the glitter look past the lights look past all the bombast
35:17
look past the superficiality of Las Vegas what you see is something very
35:22
nasty the longer you look, the more you're going to the more you're going to push it away. And of course, that's what
35:29
happens to this movie. And the critics and the audience and they killed the
35:35
messenger for it. They kill poor Liz Berkeley. She proves Paul Verhovven's
35:41
point. The girl never was in another movie again. Why? Why? She could have been in
35:48
a dance movie. She could have been in Coyote Ugly, right? She could have danced on the bar. should have looked
35:53
great better than the chicks that were in it. Interesting. Very interesting. That's
35:58
what makes this a very very influential movie because people are still talking about this 20 years 25 years later.
36:07
Yeah. Yeah. And well and and I I I think
36:13
another aspect of this movie we need to talk about is just overall
36:19
um the production values, the look of it. Um it looks like a
36:25
million bucks. Um and and I mean of course it does. I mean every Verhovven
36:31
movie looks like a million bucks. But I I think again at the end of the day,
36:36
this movie was judged on its budget too because this could have been made as a
36:43
sort of a grindhouse style movie uh and
36:48
probably been just as effective. But the fact that it was presented
36:53
uh in this, you know, shiny, you know, uh pristine
37:01
package. I I I think it threw a lot of people off because at the end of the day, it's a
37:07
very dark movie. It's a very um uh
37:12
you know, it's not easy subject material. So, I think it was like part of the the way this movie was sold, you
37:19
know, the the darkness wasn't really part of the marketing of this film. And I do want to talk about
37:26
Yeah. And and I do want to talk Yeah. And I do want to talk about this because I know uh our buddy Sean um from
37:33
the Last of the Action Heroes uh podcast network um brought this up.
37:38
Happy Funk Network. Yeah. The Last Horah. How sad it was. how how
37:44
disastrously that was snatched from us. Yeah. Uh unfortunately, but I I do know
37:50
that that he is not a fan of the direction this movie goes in. Uh and
37:58
it's a valid take, but at the same time, the movie has to go there.
38:03
There has to be a moment. There has to be a moment that
38:09
snaps know me out of it, right? Um because they can do whatever they want. Goes bad.
38:14
Yeah. They can do whatever they want to to Nomi. Nobody can handle it. Um she can roll with the punches for for
38:21
lack of a better term. And the irony is nothing touches her in this film. Yes, she's upset,
38:28
but nothing really touches her. She's not the one who gets violently raped. Mhm.
38:34
No, that's her friend. or this happened all happened to her before and it's just a co it's a it's a
38:42
conglomerate of all her memories. So that's an interesting take. Well,
38:47
that's my take anyway. But yeah, it's it's Sean's take was well this is a it's
38:53
a satire. It's a black comedy. So it should have it should be it shouldn't go there. It should should have more
39:00
lean into the comedy more and it should be funny and well that's the problem.
39:06
what they're doing there isn't funny at all. Not to pull for Hovind. And so he's not he may not be a moralist, but he
39:14
abores violence against women. And in his opinion, Las Vegas in its entirety
39:21
is just gross. That's what this movie proves. It's like
39:26
there's nobody nobody likable anywhere
39:33
because the people who are likable, they don't survive. They end up in hospital.
39:39
I found that amazing. And I found this reaction amazing. It's like, yeah, I was disappointed with the movie because it
39:46
wasn't funny or it didn't go somewhere funny. So, I would feel better about Las Vegas and I would feel better about
39:52
what's happening to this woman, right? Because that's the American way. If you make a movie where you're showing
39:58
something really gruesome and their things are blowing up and and it's just it's terrible, you know, someone's head
40:04
is being chopped off, then you just end it with a joke. You make it funny. Haha. And then everything is okay again
40:11
because we didn't mean it. We were making a joke. That's basically what what that says. Then then you can present it as entertainment. And here's
40:18
Paul Verhovven saying, "Yeah, let's not go there. This isn't funny at all. This is reality. I've talked to 200 uh
40:25
strippers and dancers and prostitutes because they did some serious research, right? And they had such fun doing it. I
40:31
mean, you can just imagine like him and Joe Esther talking to uh all the major
40:37
players in Vegas and you know, they're big names, so of course people are going to show up and tell them everything they know. It's like, oh yeah.
40:44
And he said, well, basically every note I took, it all ended in the movie ended up in the movie. Everything that happens
40:51
is someone someone's anecdote. So that that's not a pretty picture. That's not funny. Haha. There's no satire in there.
40:58
Well, to a degree. To a degree because there's the typical
41:03
Paul Forhovven uh kind of, you know, uh body humor where uh she's finally
41:09
getting with u the bouncer guy. And so they're making out and it's like, I
41:16
mean, this isn't just making out. This isn't Hollywood making out. This is a Dutch movie making out. There's tongues
41:21
everywhere. Nipples are pierced, you know. Um, and so at some point she says,
41:27
"I can't." And he says, "Why? Why? Why?" I said, "I'm on my period." Of course, he doesn't believe it. What guy would? I
41:32
mean, we're here. And she goes, "Check." So he sticks a finger in there and he comes out and it has blood on it. He's
41:38
like, "Hey, I got towels." But she leaves in a huff, right? That's really
41:44
Dutch. That's if you watch it like a Dutch movie from the 70s, there's a lot of that stuff going on. That's that's
41:49
what he came from. That's that's what he finds funny. It's like, yeah, now we're gonna present them. I mean, you don't
41:55
really get sex in this film. You don't get it because once she was on a period
42:00
and in the other one, it's underwater. You don't see anything. It's just waves.
42:07
Yeah. Holy was having a laugh while he was filming that. It's like, okay, now everybody's going to be expecting
42:14
sex, but you're not going to get it. Yeah. The only sex you're going to get is forced.
42:19
Mhm. When three guys forced themselves on an innocent woman who didn't ask for it.
42:25
Mhm. Who's just a fan? Yeah. Well, and and then also the the
42:32
simulated sex that we get where, you know, um Smith famously says to her, you
42:38
know, uh you were [ __ ] him without [ __ ] him. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's Paul for Hovind's
42:45
commentary on the on on that phenomenon because that's not European. We don't do that here at all.
42:51
Yeah. Yeah. You just you just if you do that, you just go to a prostitute, you know, takes 15 minutes and you pay maybe
42:57
€4 and and you get to get sucked and you and you get to have sex and you come and that's it. You know, it's just okay.
43:04
Saturday night, you had dinner, you've been to a movie, uh you're out with your buddies, you pick a prostitute, and you
43:10
have fun, right? And so in America it's like well you go to with your buddies to a a strip bar and you go to the buffet
43:18
and then you get a lap dance right for your birthday or something. Yeah. Paul does not get that. Well, he gets it
43:26
but he he kind of Well, there's the satire. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the other
43:31
funny thing is you mentioned the scene where, you know, uh she says she's on her period and he calls her bluff. But
43:38
um it seems like that's a tool that Nomi uses because uh earlier in the film
43:44
foreshadows Yeah. Robert Dobby. Yeah. You know, asked her why she missed
43:49
her shift and she says, "I had my period." So it it it was funny. To bleed all over the stage, do you?
43:56
Yeah. Bad for business. Uh uh but it's interesting because you know there's a lot of those sort of
44:04
um what Czechov's gun type moments and one that I noticed watching the movie again for this podcast and I've watched
44:11
the movie a dozen times probably but I didn't really pick it up until this time is how many times they reference
44:17
falling down those stairs, right? Uh, so it's like of course it
44:23
needs to culminate with somebody being pushed or quote unquote falling down
44:28
those stairs, but um it it's they even foreshadow it with the other girl who avenges herself, right? It's
44:35
it's and that's why I'm thinking this is this entire thing is like a dream state. It has to be because it's so on the nose.
44:43
Yeah. Uh but yeah, and my favorite thing about this movie
44:49
and we'll get into the ending, but my favorite thing is at the very end of the movie and when she gets into the u truck
44:56
of the same guy and they're arguing over where her luggage is, you see the sign where she's going next,
45:03
right? Los Angeles. She's going from Las Vegas to Los
45:08
Angeles. She's going from bad to worse. That's what Paul Forhovven is saying. It's a commentary. Yeah,
45:15
that's if there had been a sequel, it would have been about how Nomi is in
45:22
the porn industry trying to break into mainstream acting. It would it would have written itself,
45:28
right? Yeah. Yeah. You would have run into uh the Harvey Weinstein of this world.
45:34
Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, one interesting thing that sort of and and this is another thing I noticed for the first
45:41
time last night when I watched it again. Um and this this kind of gives, you know, credence to your theory, though.
45:47
Uh when they're at the Paradiso, uh at the Andrew Carver party, um Nomi's
45:53
dancing with Zach Kyle Mccclaclin, uh and his gloriously ridiculous
45:58
haircut. Um, I I I I can't get over the entire presentation of him as a
46:04
character. You either like or dislike Kyle Mclofflin's haircut. It's just what it
46:09
is. Uh, I I think he's perfect in this film, and it's unfortunate that he doesn't see
46:15
that. Um, but if you watch that scene in the background, you see um the Thai
46:23
businessman from the boat show dancing with Nikki, who was the other girl who
46:28
went to the boat show. and I never noticed him before. Right. Um,
46:33
and that alone he stayed to she stayed for karaoke in the afterparty. Mhm. Mhm.
46:40
But then also it it it's this whole sort of playing with with time because I
46:45
think after the six week time jump from, you know, when she arrives in Vegas to
46:51
when she's dancing at the cheetah Mhm. our whole sense of time is is [ __ ] Uh
47:00
because because a lot happens and you're like, well, does this happen over the period of days, the period of weeks, the period of months?
47:07
Um I mean, is she that talented that she becomes like um uh you know, the new
47:12
girl in into the understudy of the lead. Yeah. To the lead. Uh the lead. And and
47:19
I think uh that businessman being at the Paradiso, well, like for me, I was like,
47:25
well, it's got to be a couple of weeks later, right? Like, and I'm like, how long is he in town for? Or did he go
47:32
away and then come back? Um, but either way, I I I thought it was an interesting
47:38
detail that that he ended up at that at that party. And and like I said, I never
47:44
noticed him before. Yeah, because he's supposed to be what? A heavy roller,
47:49
right? Yeah. An important customer for the casino to be placated to, you know, will'll keep
47:55
him happy with uh free tickets to stuff and and uh show show girls to bang and
48:01
that kind of thing. Yeah. Um so that was definitely
48:07
interesting and and you're interested because that's the suggestion at the end of the movie and that's the ending of it
48:13
is that Nomi's made it. She's the star of the show. She's the goddess. But
48:21
Zach K Mclofflin, the director, finds out about her past that she's been
48:26
trying to hide, right? Oh, I don't know my social security number. Oh, I'm from back east somewhere, you know, from all
48:33
over the place. I've done a lot of stuff. Blah blah blah. Nobody knows anything about her because nobody has to
48:38
know anything about her because it's her dream. You don't introduce yourself in your own dream. You know everything everything about yourself. But you're
48:44
hiding stuff from yourself while you're dreaming. Again, my theory. But Zach finds out, and that's always your worst
48:51
fear, right? Yeah. So, guess what? I found out that you were a hooker and you
48:57
were busted here and here and here and here, and you had possession and and you uh you're violent and you know, you
49:03
assaulted people. And so, he's basically saying, you know, you're going to be a star here and you're going to be very
49:08
valuable to us and you know, you're going to make us a lot of money. And basically what he's saying is, yeah, I'm
49:15
your pimp now. I'm not going to be your boyfriend. I'm your pimp. And she recognizes it. And that's why
49:22
the ending, I mean, if you look at the ending and you just look at basically the story, it's like, why would she
49:28
leave? She's made it. No, she hasn't. Because the dream is not becoming the goddess of the show. The dream is
49:35
getting away from prostitution, getting away from her past. and she finds out,
49:40
"Oh god, I'm the biggest [ __ ] here." Because that's what Crystal keeps telling her. It's like, "No, I can just
49:47
buy you if I want to." Cuz she does. She keeps proving out throughout the movie, "No, I'm a [ __ ] and I do this for money
49:55
and I give my customers what they want." And then Nomi shells her down the stairs
50:02
and she can sue uh she can sue the casino and get a settlement and she's
50:07
actually happy about it cuz she got out. Yeah.
50:13
Right. We should all be thrown down the stairs. Well, yeah. And that's also the the most interesting thing about it is, you know,
50:19
you think when when they when Zach finds out who she really is that, you know,
50:26
the jig is up. But like you said, he sees he just sees dollar signs. I can They
50:32
were worried about They couldn't control her. Yeah. Mhm. How are we going to control this chick?
50:37
I mean, Crystal was a commodity. They knew what what they had there because she'd been a star for ages. So, what we
50:43
going to do? Get Paula Abdul and or get get this girl or get Latoya or No. No.
50:48
Too expensive. And now they have this chick and they can just keep her there in perpetuity because where where is she
50:57
going to go, right? Yeah. Well, apparently back on the road.
51:02
Yeah. Well, and then also they they also show that she's part of this bigger machine that is going to protect
51:09
people like Andrew Carver as well, right? You know, like he's not at our he's not at our casino right now,
51:15
but in two or three years he might be. So he going to be a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to marry you to
51:22
this felon, right? Enjoy your life.
51:28
Yeah. Well, and and and again, like for me, the ending is
51:35
perfect. Um totally. Yeah. Great. The moment that the moment that gets her there isn't. And it's it's it's a
51:41
difficult scene to watch. And and I think that's probably what threw uh you
51:46
know Sean and a lot of other people off is like hey I didn't sign up for this. Uh but one thing Verhovven's great at is
51:53
like you know you're buying a ticket you're going to take the full ride. Um whether
51:58
you want to or not. Um and I think that's the real the real thing that I think a lot of people that
52:04
threw a lot of people off. They were like hey I didn't sign up for this. I signed up for a a fun Vegas movie and
52:12
Verhovven doesn't give you that. He gives you something really really dark and sinister instead. And the the
52:18
funniest part about it is and this is nobody warned them this was a horror movie, right? No. Well, well, no. And and the other
52:24
thing is this is a you know this speaks to the commentary on you know how women are treated in society and violence
52:30
against women is in the scene with Molly you you really
52:36
see the the the violence and you contrast that with the scene where um
52:42
Nomi goes to get her vengeance uh on Carver. you see the initial hit uh but
52:49
from that point all you're seeing is the the kicks from uh a POV perspective if
52:56
you will you're not it's like the Jean Claude Fandam wheel kick
53:02
yeah but you don't you don't see the the violence that is inflicted on on Carver
53:09
aside from from her end of things whereas you contrast that with the fact that we very much saw the violence Ino stole
53:17
this for his movie cuz he loves show girls and he stole
53:22
this for the ending of his movie for uh Death Proof. That's that's the death proof ending.
53:28
The three girls avenging themselves on uh Kurt Russell and they kick him to death.
53:34
But in in in in that scenario, we see the violence. We see Kurt Russell's uh head get smashed. Uh and that's the
53:42
thing. I mean, here we don't see the aftermath of what happened, but if you if you look at at what she does and
53:49
you're keeping score of it, you're like, she really [ __ ] this guy up. Like, you
53:54
almost wonder if he's going to be able to perform ever again. Yep. They're probably going to if that
54:01
actually happened, if it wasn't just a dream, then they're going to have to be wiring his jaw together.
54:07
Yeah. But but the thing is I wonder do you have any take on on on
54:14
the hows or wise of seeing the the violence against Mali and not really seeing it against Carver.
54:21
I think he um he purposely didn't show it um because he wanted to f he wanted to
54:28
focus to be on her and what happened to her because we already know what happened to her. She's very probably did
54:34
the same thing to him. She might have been she might even have gotten a little uh because we he
54:41
ironically he leaves it up to our imagination. Uh but at that point she's fairly psychotic. So that switchblade
54:47
that came out she might have gotten creative with that. You never know. There's a reason why she leaves town really quick.
54:55
Yeah. Yeah. Um she does stop to dress up in uh you know
55:00
uh some new nice. Yes. Uh
55:07
yeah, I it's it's it's it's wild because I I never I never really thought about some of the concepts and ideas that
55:14
you're you're presenting. And like I said, Esther House is a very sort of on-nose filmmaker. So interpreting his
55:22
stuff through the lens of Verhovven is is going to leave you a lot of uh
55:28
interesting questions. very interesting pairing because um I'm used to Verhovven
55:33
working with um Saudike which is his basically his his uh the usual guy he
55:40
writes with and Verhovven is very much a aur director.
55:46
Uh he but he usually picks a book and they just rework that into a scenario,
55:53
right? Like with Soldier Orange, they picked an actual autobiography of an actual person uh the actual um Eric
56:01
Hazelhov and made it into a movie and
56:06
Ferhovven did his take on it. That's not really what happened to to Helov. It's
56:12
kind of kind of an amalgamation of what happened to a lot of guys who uh got
56:17
into a boat and went to England to fight uh Nazi Germany, right? The thing with
56:23
Esther House, we already if you look at Esther's script for Basic Instinct, a
56:28
lot of the things you see aren't on the page. Like the scene where u Sharon Stone
56:36
bears all right, where she basically spreads her legs. That's something that
56:41
happened to Paul Verhovven personally in college at some point, right? So there's a lot of Paul
56:49
Verhovven in all his movies and that's why Jesus Christ keeps showing up.
56:54
That's why um uh violence against women is almost
57:01
a theme in in all of his films. Flesh and blood is almost the same story when you think about it.
57:08
And the same with an earlier movie he did in Holland which was called Spatters which is about three guys who are um
57:15
romantically interested in a girl who works in a burger joint. And so they all try and
57:23
finally she settles for the last one because the first one kills himself after an accident and uh the other one
57:30
turns out to be gay. Verhovven is the dominant partner in this. Yeah. Well well it's also not point I was trying to make
57:36
Yeah. I I think it's not and and Esther House talks about this in his books too is it wasn't really um
57:45
a collaboration in the sense that after the script was done Esther House had a lot of input on set and I think that's
57:51
part of the issues he had and you know why he almost walked from Basic Instinct and um thank goodness the partnership
57:59
ended up the way it did because we got the films that we got but it's sort of easy to see and it's Esther House's best
58:06
the facts. Yeah. But it's also easy and made it art.
58:12
Yeah. Uh it's easy to see Esther House's point of view though because he's a very opinionated guy and uh like I said, he
58:19
he he fought for he fought for his his scripts. Um but again, at the end of the
58:25
day, um you know, thank goodness uh that this collaboration uh wound up the way
58:31
it did. Uh it's amazing. And and again, I I think he's not writing the screenplay for
58:37
Jesus of Nazareth, apparently. Yeah. Hold is still looking for a guy to write
58:43
it. Yeah. Well, I mean, Esther Hos is in his 80s now. Um he's he's had some he's had
58:50
some battles in his life. He's he's battled throat cancer. Um the dude has
58:55
earned whatever he's earned in terms of where he's at now. Um retirement. Again, at the end of the
59:02
day, I really have to say thank goodness that Verhovven and Esther
59:07
House had the stroke to get this movie made. Thank goodness the executives in charge
59:13
of the the purse strings at MGM didn't think twice about what they were paying
59:19
for because we got a movie uh that
59:24
shouldn't have been made, that was made. True. uh and is
59:30
whether or not you think it's a good movie at the end of the day, it's it's it's a remarkable movie and it's
59:36
I think it's good art. Yeah, because that's what he was making. This
59:42
is an art house film done in Hollywood. It's his first art house film in
59:47
Hollywood, but that's what it is. And ironically,
59:52
um, Hollywood wanted him because of his art house movies, because of his Dutch sensibilities. That's why they wanted
59:58
him. The thing is, yeah, we we it's great that you can do that, but we want it this way, right? That's always been
1:00:05
his frustration. It was a frustration in Robocop. was a frustration in Total Recall and it was a frustration in in
1:00:11
Starship Troopers is that um he has all these abilities but they're constantly
1:00:17
reigning him in show girls
1:00:22
that's just an unleashed for Hovind film like it or dislike it. Well, no, and that's the funniest thing
1:00:28
about any kind of you know uh commercial art if you think about it.
1:00:33
Um you know and it's happened with plenty of filmmakers. It's happened with plenty of uh music artists. It's like,
1:00:41
well, do you do you want me or do you want the potential to make money from
1:00:47
me? Cuz it's like, if you want me, let me of having someone as Verhovven. They
1:00:52
don't want to actually have him do what he's good at. Yeah. Because the cache will sell the movie
1:01:01
and that's how we make money, not your stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't go down well with
1:01:08
movie makers. Yeah. So, again, I mean, it's just I I
1:01:15
I'm really thankful every every time I think about this movie uh about the fact that it actually got made. And it also
1:01:23
still stands up. Yeah. You can still It's still very watchable. Yeah. No,
1:01:29
because of the nudity. Yeah. No. And it also makes me disappointed because again, this was
1:01:36
a a a fork in the road in in Hollywood, if you will. Um, and
1:01:44
its failure uh or lack of success theatrically
1:01:49
uh really changed sort of the direction film making could have gone in. We could
1:01:55
have gotten more of these NC17 uh truly adult films, quote unquote.
1:02:03
Perhaps it was sabotaged for that very reason, cuz this movie made a ton of money. It's
1:02:10
just people didn't want to go to a theater to see it. They want to own the videape. They want to own that Blu-ray.
1:02:16
Right. Yeah. Which is a another weird commentary. Yeah. This film is an immense success
1:02:24
and it's being buil as an dramatic failure in every conceivable way in the
1:02:31
critical sense and in in in box office ways and it's just not true.
1:02:38
And that's what that's one of the reasons why I thought well you might be a good person to uh discuss this movie
1:02:44
uh with me. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I and I appreciate it and I think this was a a
1:02:49
really uh man this was a really interesting discussion and and it's I I wasn't sure
1:02:55
where it was going to go but uh man I I I it Perhovven makes movies that are food for
1:03:00
thought and and this every time I see it
1:03:08
I just I have a different take on it and I think well could be this it could be that and that's what good art does.
1:03:14
Yeah. It's what David Lynch was so good at. It's what Stanley Kubri was so good at. It's lost now. But there are still
1:03:22
movies you can enjoy that don't give you comfortable endings, that don't give you
1:03:28
logical conclusions. Not everything is easy. And Showgirl is certainly not
1:03:34
easy. No, it's only easy on the eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Uh perfect
1:03:42
summation. Thank you. Anyway, um, let's talk again and I'll
1:03:49
see you soon. All right. Thank you, Seco. Thank you. Bye-bye.