The Director's Chair Network

20th Century Fox presents Phantom of the Paradise, a gothic horror story.
Hello and welcome back to The Goat, a Brian De Palma fan podcast.
And on this episode, I am very happy to be joined once again, not on this podcast, but he guested on a previous podcast,
by fellow podcaster and composer David Rosen. David, welcome.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. This is going to be a fun one.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We actually chatted way back during the dark days of COVID for my conversations at Jack Rabbit Slim's podcast. You were my first guest.
Nice. Yeah, yeah. That was great.
That was a very fun episode. And also, we are also both Las Vegas residents. And I would argue, David, you might be too humble to agree,
but I would argue that you are the face and the voice of the Las Vegas podcasting community.
Well, I appreciate that.
Yeah.
And when I say that, David, I mean that there's a true podcasting scene here in Las Vegas, and it's not just the influencers that show you how to play slot machines or things like that.
I mean, you do live events around the city.
Sure.
You're very tied into the arts community here in Las Vegas. And even though I haven't had a chance to make it out to one of those live events, I always love seeing that you're doing them and getting people more exposure to the arts and the culture scene here in Las Vegas.
Yeah, absolutely. It's been so much fun adding those into my whole schedule, and I'm hoping to keep doing them. I got a couple lined up right now. And yeah, it's just such a fun way to get that immediate reaction from an audience. And, you know, it's a cool addition to just the usual podcasting thing.
Yeah, yeah. And we'll get more into your podcasting and your film work at the end here. But I am anxious to talk about 1974's The Phantom of the Paradise. It's Brian De Palma's seventh film. And I know we set this up a while ago and you finally had time to watch it. We finally had time to sit down together. I love Phantom of the Paradise. It's one of my favorite De Palma films. And I know this was a first time watch for you.
Any just general thoughts before we get too deep into the scene we're going to talk about?
I mean, first thought is I probably would have liked this even more if I got to see it at like a midnight screening or something like that.
That was the first time I saw the movie.
Yeah, it seems like perfectly put together for that kind of an experience. And yeah, I think I would have loved it in that experience setting. Watching it at home, I still really liked it. And especially it being, you know, the whole composer thing, selling his soul.
Like that all like obviously hits home for me. And I love, you know, rock and roll music movies. And so it fits into all that. Plus, it's just that shit crazy.
Yeah. And I got to say, I mean, it was made for under $2 million in the early 1970s. It's a really good looking film, especially the opening titles. When you get like that sort of like neon titles, it's great. It's a better looking movie than the budget would say.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's the thing that you, you know, associate with the Palmas, like, you know, production value and like, like things just looking amazing. And it's definitely fits right in there.
Now, are you a Paul Williams fan or?
Not particularly like, you know, I think that there's probably plenty that I like from Paul Williams that, you know, I just wouldn't even really even be able to name things off the top of my head, though.
I just know that he's just been a part of so much.
Yeah, I think the rainbow connection is his big song. You know, a lot of people have that Muppets connection. But sure, sure.
Yeah, I do know that a lot of people that are sort of on the fence or on the other side of the fence with this movie, they're just not Paul Williams people. And he's all over this film because he wrote all the music.
It's funny. We always talk about like casting choices and things like that. But it's like, Paul Williams is such a weird character in this movie. It's you like you almost wonder who else could have done the role.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's also very 70s like this, you know, him as this character. If you were to make this movie today, it just would not look like that.
It would be like, you know, big and tall and like, you know, maybe some kind of like scary looking guy like this guy just looks like a record producer or a songwriter.
Yeah, I mean, I guess at the time, the biggest comparison could have been like, maybe Phil Spector, because they're both tiny men and have weird hair.
I don't really know. I wasn't I wasn't old enough to appreciate this movie when it came out.
Let's talk a little bit more about the cast before we jump into the scene. I think the important people to talk about are, of course, William Finley, who is kind of an early De Palma collaborator.
He plays Winslow Leach, who also becomes the Phantom. And then Jessica Harper in her first movie, which, you know, I think a lot of people probably know her from like Suspiria, at least in the horror world.
She does her own singing, I believe, too. And she's got quite a voice.
I think she's in I've never actually seen it, but she's in shock treatment. Right.
Oh, is she? That's the Rocky Horror sequel, right?
Yeah. Yeah. OK. So, yeah, I've never actually seen I have the DVD literally sitting next to my TV because I was going to watch it just recently and I just haven't gotten a chance.
But yeah, I think she's in that. And then, yeah, I mean, of course, Suspiria is like the main thing to remember from.
I wasn't quite sure what I know William Finley from, though.
Yeah, I mean, he was in a lot of these early De Palma, like pre Phantom movies.
He also did the voice of Bobby in Dressed to Kill. And I think he popped up in the Black Dahlia.
But I mean, he's an interesting looking guy. So, you know, he had a certain career in Hollywood.
Now, before we get too deep into the Phantom of the Paradise, you're also not too deep when it comes to De Palma either. Correct?
Right. And I don't know why it is. It's not any particular reason. I've liked most of what I've seen, if not loved a bunch of it.
It's just there's been a lot of things that are, you know, it's just blind spots when it comes to cinema history.
But, you know, there's plenty that I have seen. I just recently watched Body Double for the first time, which that might honestly be my favorite movie of his that I've seen.
On the last episode or the episode that's actually going to be coming out as, you know, as we're recording this, I'm editing it right now.
I go on record and say that I, Body Double, if you put a gun to my head and said, let's watch a De Palma movie, I'm putting on Body Double.
No, I do not blame you. It's a fun one. Absolutely.
And that's another movie that just looks so good. And it's funny, my guest sort of talked about the drill scene in that movie being a little much for audiences, but I thought it was like perfection.
Oh, yeah.
I love when De Palma sort of leans into the gutter side of his filmmaking toolkit.
Yeah.
But yeah, I mean, do you have any overall like preconceived notions about De Palma when you were sitting down to watch Phantom of the Paradise?
I mean, I guess I just go into a De Palma film thinking this is going to be some kind of genre picture, but made by, you know, an expert.
You know what I mean? Like that's kind of the thing.
Honestly, we literally just did a Piecing It Together episode on Trap, the new M. Night Shyamalan movie. And that's exactly how I view an M. Night Shyamalan movie. I'm like, regardless of what the story is going to be, regardless of what the tone is going to be, I know this is going to be made by somebody who knows how to make a movie.
Yeah. So you have the assumption that there's going to be some entertainment value there, whether or not you like the movie or not.
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. You know what? I think it's great, David, when you have those filmmakers that you know and trust enough that they're going to get you your money's worth when you buy a ticket or, you know, rent the movie or purchase the Blu-ray or the 4K or whatever you do.
Yeah. And it's funny, you know, you talk about Shyamalan and much like De Palma, they've had incredible highs and they've also had really, really low lows.
And I think any filmmaker that's going to operate at the level that these guys operate at, you're not going to have every movie be a hit.
You're going to have your bonfire of the vanities. You're going to have your villages and things like that.
And it's been a long time since I've watched it, but I've always thought Unbreakable is one of the best directed movies of the last 30 years.
100 percent. I completely agree with that. And yeah, I mean, really, when it comes down to it, these are people who are willing to take a big swing, even if it doesn't always work out.
Yeah, no. And you've got to respect that. And I'm not really interested in covering those De Palma movies on this podcast because it's more of a celebration.
And I don't really want to go down those roads where you're just bagging on stuff. There's enough of that content on the Internet. I don't need to contribute to it.
So in terms of the movie, you picked an interesting scene. It's the scene where Swan basically signs the deal with the Phantom.
He basically the Phantom signs his soul away for the for the rights to, I guess, what, compose another cantata that Phoenix can sing.
And I thought it was funny watching this the other night when I watched it. It had been sort of the first time I've watched the movie since this whole sort of AI phenomenon has blown up.
And when he's dialing in the Phantom's voice, I was like, oh, you know what? That's completely relatable today because like he says he's applying filters and things like that.
But you're basically just using an AI model. It's like, hey, here's the Paul Williams AI model for the Phantom's voice.
It's funny you say that because I was almost going to go with that scene.
That was my my second pick scene is to like kind of like dig into that.
But yeah, I mean, you know, everything is created in the studio nowadays and especially created by some form of machine and that it's like this weird machine that does it all very unrealistic.
But yeah, it's really fun. And definitely nowadays with AI, I mean, that's just going to it's going to just do it all automatically.
And once you're using AI, you're kind of signing a deal with the devil kind of, aren't you?
Yeah. Yeah. So that studio that they're in, that little control room or whatever it is, that's actually the old record plant in New York City before they moved out west to California.
And it's wild because it seems like such a weird room they're in.
Like, I don't know if production just made it look smaller than it is, but when I learned that it was like a functional recording space, I was like, wow, something just I don't know if there was a lot of movie magic at play there or what, but what a unique looking space.
Yeah, it is really, really cool.
And again, like, you know, we're talking about what do you expect when you go into the Palma movie, you expect production value through the roof, you know, like something that just it looks unique.
It looks exactly as it should look.
And it just really just fills the screen with so much cool, interesting visuals.
And that room is definitely that.
Yeah. So the movie is kind of a combination of what Faust, you could say, I think the wiki page says the picture of Dorian Gray.
And then also, of course, the Phantom of the Opera.
I guess the scene we're talking about is mostly related to Faust in the, you know, in the sense that he's he's making a deal with the devil.
And we don't really get this reveal until later in the movie.
And I know I'm jumping about around a bunch, but we're still focusing on the scene.
But I love at the end when Swan says or towards the end when Swan says, you're not the only one who made a deal.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then we find out that there's like a whole layer upon layer of this to like look forward to.
Yeah. But that's the coolest thing I think about this deal is obviously Winslow slash the Phantom is a really, really conflicted artist.
He's passionate about his music. He's passionate about Phoenix's voice.
I was curious, how manipulated do you think he actually was by Swan?
Or do you think he would have signed a contract or signed his soul away a lot sooner?
Well, I mean, I think that he's kind of nuts to begin with before any of this happens.
So, I mean, he was probably fairly easily manipulated from the get go just because of the kind of guy he is.
Something I didn't even realize because I have the Wikipedia page up, you know, before we started this is that Paul Williams does the singing voice for the Phantom, which makes sense considering he's the musician.
And William Finley's not necessarily, you know, an artist or whatever in that sense.
But that almost adds a little meta layer to the idea that he is kind of taking advantage of this guy.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
You know, I've often said that I think De Palma's sense of humor often gets overshadowed because he's known for Scarface or for Carrie and, you know, Dress to Kill and Body Double and stuff like that.
But I think his humor gets overlooked. And this is a really funny scene if you look at it when they're going over sort of the terms of the contract.
And, you know, Swan's like it's all in there. And I'm not verbatim going to get into the details, but there was like loose verbiage that's like, yeah, anything that's not covered is covered here.
I actually wrote it down. All articles that are excluded will be deemed included. And he said, what does that mean? He's like, oh, that's just there to protect you.
Yeah, I mean, it's like basically the worst contract you can sign.
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, though.
As crazy as it is to say, I think.
The Phantom's ending is the ending he deserved.
He sort of got the love and admiration of Phoenix, and he also, you know, rid the world of Swan, right?
It's tragic. But at the same time, I'm not sure that there's a happy ending for the Phantom.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it, you know, this is a rock and roll musical. I think it kind of mirrors real life rock and roll just in a much more elevated way.
You know, these artists that are, you know, looking for that, you know, that spotlight and that fame and everything.
And then they burn out really quickly. This is just a much more spectacular burnout.
Yeah, I also do love that the signature is instigated by a drop of blood.
Yeah.
Which is always great when you have, you know, supernatural contract signings.
Yeah.
One other thing I did want to talk about from a music perspective, and again, we're getting a little bit away from the scene.
But De Palma talks about it on the Blu-ray extras, about how you see the song that Winslow wrote sort of evolve and mutate and go through different genres.
As somebody who plays music, I thought that was really, really fascinating.
Yeah, I did too. And I like what they do with the music. I just didn't necessarily think the music itself was memorable. And that was my biggest problem with the movie. And I think if I liked the songs, I would probably have liked the movie even more. But I do like that, though. I like that the music that he wrote, that he composed, just gets taken from him and just morphs and changes. And it's just completely not his anymore by the time it starts getting performed.
Yeah, I mean, there is that sort of montage sequence where they're auditioning all the singers.
Yeah, yeah.
And you get like the country version of it. You get like the soul singing version of it. Just really, really cool. But yeah, I think that the contract signing scene is a really fun sequence in the movie. And I love when De Palma is able to have fun. Any broad, general overall thoughts on the movie before we move on?
I mean, I think really what it comes down to, it's just it's just wild, you know, and wild in the way that a rock and roll musical should be. You know, I was thinking of, you know, of course, Rocky Horror is something that gets mentioned along with this a lot of the times. I was also thinking of Ken Russell's films like List of Mania or Tommy.
Also, there's an 80s movie Voyage of the Rock Aliens, which is just so much fun. It's just so campy and ridiculous.
I'll have to look for that.
Oh, it's wild. But yeah, just these movies that take the the rock and roll experience and just amp them up, you know, so freaking far. I guess, you know, we're talking about taking it to 11. You got to throw Spinal Tap on the list, too.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think you sort of said it earlier in the sense that, like, there's a level of absurdity surrounding rock and roll. So how can you not lean into being absurd?
Yeah, absolutely. On our other podcast, awesome movie, we covered List of Mania. And that was my big takeaway from List of Mania is that, like, of course, this movie is the most ridiculous thing in the world. It is Ken Russell celebrating rock and roll music. I mean, that's it is very, very on the nose. But I love that. I think it's just so much fun.
Yeah, yeah. Excellent. So let's talk a little bit about your podcast, because I know you've got a couple that you work on or that you produce or that you host. So why don't you run them down for us?
Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, so Piecing It Together is my podcast, the one that I host and that I've been doing the live shows here in Las Vegas. It is a movie podcast where we take a look at a new movie through the lens of what other movies might have inspired it.
And each episode is taking a new movie as a jumping off point to get into other films that deal with similar themes or filmmaking styles or ideas. And it's just a fun, almost game like kind of way to talk about a movie.
And I've been doing it for a little over six years now, the live shows for the last couple of years, although not as monthly as they've been lately until the past year, which has just been awesome that I've been able to keep it going.
And then, yeah, I also produce Awesome Movie Year, which is a different movie podcast about different years in cinema history. It's hosted by film critic Josh Bell and comedian Jason Harris. And I'm also on mic, although it's mainly their conversation. I chime in a little here and there.
But we are currently actually we just finished 1980 and now we are jumping back to 1969, which is the new season about to start. So each one of those seasons, you know, I get to kind of expand my knowledge in different awesome movie years.
Yeah. So those are the two podcasts I've got going right now. I've also done, you know, production work and music for various other podcasts over the years.
Yeah. And you actually you've covered how many years on Awesome Movie Year now?
It's this is going to be season 18. So, well, technically 17 different years because season 10 was a bonus season. And I think season 20 will be again.
But where we like kind of filled in some blanks throughout the other seasons. I just did like a whole season of bonus episodes, basically. But yeah, so 17 different awesome movie years so far.
Yeah. And I know you've gone as far back as the 1930s, correct?
Yeah. 39 was the the oldest season that we've done.
Yeah.
But yeah, yeah, it's fun. We just go all over the place. I think the latest season we did was 2014.
Something like that. Yeah. But I think Josh has like a hard stop right around there where no no seasons because we got to let the movie have some legacy, you know, and absolutely.
It's hard to talk about movies without them having a couple of years behind them, because you know what you get what the your initial reaction is is always like super enthusiastic.
Movies definitely need time to breathe and time to be either rediscovered or slightly forgotten.
Yeah, absolutely. That's all part of it. That's all part of it.
Yeah. Let's also talk a little bit about your music, because I know in addition to being a solo artist, you also compose music for TV and film.
Yeah, well, I did sign that deal that one time that didn't quite work out.
Just kidding. Yeah, no, I compose music for film, TV, all that kind of stuff.
I've been doing that for about 15 years now.
Well, really, like 20 years, but like actually getting gigs the last 15 years.
I'm about to start on another short film coming up here and I have another feature that's lined up that's still in the shooting and editing phases and all that kind of stuff.
I've done probably close to 10 features at this point and just dozens and dozens of shorts and various other kinds of projects.
And then I put out albums of instrumental music, which is inspired by my film work, but also by alternative artists and all kinds of music that I like.
Rock music, rap music, just everything just kind of thrown into a blender and just given my particular point of view.
And my most recent album was called More Content, which is a very tongue in cheek title, because no one should call this stuff content.
But I'm currently doing something called 24 for 2024, where I'm releasing a new single on the first and third Friday of every month of the year.
I had a whole lot of music and I didn't really feel it fit together as an album.
And I was just like, you know, this would be an interesting kind of experimental way to release this stuff.
A lot of extra behind the scenes work, but, you know, it's all coming out and a lot of tracks that I'm just super proud of.
And I have a whole nother album that's like 60 percent done.
So that'll probably be coming out next year.
And aside from that, I'm also making these comedy, silly novelty songs about my pets.
And that's called The Pup Pups.
And there's been two albums so far and album number three is well on the way.
And yeah, it's just songs about and in some cases sung by my pets.
So it's very silly and ridiculous and a completely different side of everything that I do.
Yeah, I'll be sure to include a link to your website so people can check all that stuff out.
So I really enjoyed sitting down and chatting with you.
And as you discover more De Palma films, if you ever want to come back on and chat a particular scene you've seen and said, wow, I'd really like to dig deeper into that sequence.
By all means, you have an open invite to come back.
But yeah, until then, thank you again for joining me.
Yeah, absolutely.
And thank you so much for having me back on.
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