The Director's Chair Network

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Hello and welcome
to another episode of the Directors Chair Network. In this season we're covering Michael Mann films. I'm your host Ryan and with me today I have a very special guest co-host Christian. How are you doing today?
I'm doing great. Excited to get the chance to chat with you again for the first time on this program but looking forward to chatting about Michael Mann's Manhunter.
Yeah we did a well yeah you came on the worst of the best podcast where we talked about Alice Cooper's oh what was the name? From the inside. From the inside. You know I love not only did I love recording the episode which was an absolute treat to do that with you.
It was a fun album to listen to so if you want to listen to that I should plug that or link that in this episode where yeah I have another podcast called the worst of the best and it's fun to do that and you were great on that and I really appreciate you saying yes to coming on to this project.
So what is your overall thoughts of Michael Mann as a director?
I think Michael Mann is a tremendous director. I think you can watch the evolution you know between this period of his career and heat there are you can see if you were to just jump right to heat you'd be like well what happened to this guy?
You can kind of see it happen obviously you know starting in television and all of that I think that by the time you get to heat it's almost like he has in the parlance of this story he has become what he's destined to be.
He's not quite there yet with this. There's a lot that I will say that I think is brilliant in this film but I know I was very excited when you said you were doing this to the extent that if somebody else had already called dibs on Manhunter I probably would have passed because it was one that I would want to talk about.
Wow you know it's funny it's three for three now that the co-hosts that I've invited on have picked the films they wanted to do it was it just so happened with Kaylee she wanted to do Thief that was right away she wanted to do the first movie because of the reasons expressed in that episode.
With Doug on the previous one he has a great love and affinity for the movie The Keep like beyond that I didn't think anyone could have he had for that film so he was excited to talk about that film.
So this is crazy that now I'm three for three where you were saying yeah this is the film I wanted to do.
Hopefully that trend continues with the fourth one but what are the other films from Michael Mann's filmography briefly that you have overall enjoyed or even not enjoyed or have you seen them all?
Well you referenced you know I caught the episode that you did with Kaylee.
I had you know I'd heard of Thief but I had never seen it and you know it is one of those ones you hear a podcast about something you start to think like oh maybe I should check that out.
I had not seen either of those. I want to make sure I get the list correct so I've brought it up but Collateral is tremendous. Again that's that's a little bit later.
And Ali is his film. I honestly didn't even remember that until this second. I thought that you know people can think what they want about Will Smith in that era in the present day but I thought that that was great.
Biopics don't always work. I thought that one did. I thought that one was great.
And so yeah I would say Collateral Heat. Heats at the top for me. I just thought it was like I don't know if I look if I watch it today I probably won't think it's perfect. In my mind it's almost perfect.
You know.
Came out 30 years ago.
I know that's crazy.
Yeah 1995.
I do remember the insider being very good but I've seen it once. Honestly I haven't seen Ali more than once either but I do remember seeing that in a theater and being like wow this is incredibly well done.
I don't usually see most films more than once. The one film that got me on the Michael Mann train back in the day was 1992's The Last of the Mohicans which is one film that's not like any of his other films to a large degree.
However it was the film that made me just I love that film of course I'm talking about that next episode but that was the film that kind of like who is this guy who is Michael Mann and then he comes out with Heat three years later.
I'm like what this is the same guy.
So he's brought an interesting journey for me as a moviegoer and I just appreciate the big swings that he takes some of the misses he does as well.
I just think he's an interesting director and interesting guy and interesting topics that he tackles and Manhunter in 86 which was I can't believe it was a six year break between the two films but Manhunter was his third film came out in 1986.
Of course you've seen this movie before coming on the show.
Did you see it after Science of the Lambs?
I did. 1986 I was 10 so I wasn't seeing films like this.
And honestly you know reading up about it it was not a particularly successful film.
And that probably is a big part of the reason why he didn't make a movie for six years after this.
Everybody knows the talent and they're like yes we know you're capable but you kind of have to sit on the bench for a little while.
They call it director jail.
There's literally that term.
You can get out of director jail and clearly he did.
It's interesting because this film was shown on television after Science of the Lambs and they retitled it.
Retitled it Red Dragon but in the promotional they called it the pursuit of Hannibal Lecter.
Hannibal Lecter is of course in this story but it's not that story.
And the reason why I picked up this book Red Dragon was this is my copy that I've had for like 35 years.
Is I thought it was that story but what it is is an even better story.
And the story of apprehending Hannibal Lecter has been told.
But the tooth fairy, the Red Dragon is sort of fascinating.
And you're talking about people only doing stuff every few years.
Thomas Harris who wrote this and Silence of the Lambs, he usually would take close to a decade between books.
This book came out in 1981.
Silence of the Lambs the novel came out in 88.
Like the character Will Graham, he inhabits the headspace for how do you map out how this killer would do it.
And you probably don't want to live in that space for very long.
I mean the sequel to Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal, which could be argued one way or the other, didn't come out until 1999.
So it was literally more than a decade.
It's so inventive.
And you know his novel before this, Black Sunday about the lamp with the bomb at the Super Bowl.
That was only a few years before this.
That was made to movie two I think.
Yes it was.
I think that this is a great story.
And I think if you look at Manhunter at face value in a vacuum, it is a very good adaptation.
It is a great looking film.
I think it is a reasonably well cast film.
Most of the parts are good.
We can talk about some of the characters.
There's one in particular that this version doesn't really work for me.
In complete honesty, Manhunter is the fourth best version of the story that I've ever consumed.
I think the book is the best.
I hate to say that Brett Ratner did something better than Michael Mann.
But that movie, it has of course the advantage of Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter.
Arguably one of the five best characters ever captured on film.
You get that.
Ed Norton is tremendous.
Here he's very difficult to work with.
But on screen, there's no denying Ed Norton.
And the biggest disservice that Michael Mann does to this story is the amazing shock ending that they think that they've killed the red dragon, Francis Dollarhyde.
He shows up at Will Graham's house and he actually wounds him in a way that he's only ever referenced in subsequent books.
He's not functional after this encounter.
But his wife, Molly, shoots him in the end of the book and that kills Francis Dollarhyde.
Because as we remember, he gets his home address from Lecter.
And I forgot that wasn't in this.
That they just shoot him at the end.
It's a bit of a Hollywood ending, I guess.
That shot of him laying down in the blood is like, that's a great shot.
Which apparently was ketchup and syrup.
And he was stuck to the floor.
Oh, he was stuck.
He laid there so long.
So they had to scrape him off.
I was reading about that after the fact.
It's very disappointing because it's such a great ending that they have.
And by the way, I said four because in season three of the Hannibal television series, they did adapt this over multiple episodes.
And I think.
That was a good series too.
Yeah.
And I think that Mads Mikkelsen as Hannibal Lecter gave such a very different performance.
By the way, I very much like what Brian Cox does in this.
It's different.
It's his own thing.
There was nothing to compare it to.
Also, you know, Hugh Dancy as Will Graham.
I think by that point we had spent.
That was the third season of the show.
So he really got to explore the character.
In the grand scheme of Hannibal Lecter storytelling, this is my least favorite version of it.
But I can look at it objectively watching it the other day.
There's plenty of things that I like.
There's several things I don't like even in a vacuum.
But I wanted to sort of set the table where this stands for me.
Appreciate that background because it's a great standalone film.
If you never knew about Science of the Lambs or the series or Hannibal Lecter as a character that runs over three or four books, made a TV show.
The Hannibal Lecter universe blew up, so to speak.
When this movie came out, I don't think they even considered a sequel.
I don't know.
Would they have done a sequel?
Had this movie been a box office success?
Maybe.
The main reason why Will goes home and has the happy Hollywood ending is because they were probably thinking like we could do more of these.
And now I didn't read that anywhere.
I don't have the DVD with the director commentary.
There's definitely some executive that was like, let's leave the door open.
Well, sure.
It's always about money.
And this movie did not do well at the box office.
It was a $15 million budget at the time.
I think it made $8 million at the box office.
So it lost half of its...
I guess it would have cost twice as much to make just because it didn't make any money in the theater.
But over time, as we talk about it today, we talk about it lovingly and we like the movie.
People who watch it today like the movie.
It just didn't resonate with audiences.
I don't know what the word of mouth would have been because I would assume 30 odd years ago, enjoyed the film inside the theater.
Did word of mouth not get around?
Was it not liked by people back then, but like now?
Because there's a cult following now.
I was reading about some of the reviews from the time when it was released.
And there were a number of criticisms, including William Peterson as the lead.
I think he's fine, but I can see that it is a very cerebral.
And Hugh Dancy does so much more with the character again over so much more time.
I think it doesn't come across just how much he's struggling with this.
In the book, it very much does because we get it from his point of view.
And I don't know.
Maybe people just thought it was weird.
I'm not quite sure why it didn't connect.
Even on VHS, maybe.
I bet you the boom picked up after Silence of the Lambs.
I would be very curious to see what the Manhunter VHS rental rates did after Silence of the Lambs.
What?
There was a prequel?
I guarantee you there were Silence of the Lambs nerds.
And I was one of them, to be honest with you.
That's how I heard about it.
That's how I saw this movie.
I did rent it on VHS because I was aware that they had made a movie.
I believe I read Red Dragon first.
And then I got the, you know, I checked out the movie.
Yeah.
I didn't watch it on NBC when it was the pursuit of Hannibal Lecter because it was going to be filled with commercials and edited for content.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my background with Hannibal is Silence was the first thing I saw.
I was 16 at the time when it came out.
It was one of the first years I wasn't trick-or-treating anymore, but I was now an older teenager.
And so I'm like, you know what?
I think I'm going to rent a scary movie.
That's how I looked at it.
Like something that's very, you know, kind of adult and creepy.
So I went to Blockbuster or whatever it was at the time.
And I rented Silence of the Lambs, not knowing anything about it.
I just knew that there was the poster I saw in the theater with the moth or whatever in the person's mouth.
And I didn't know anything about this film.
I watched it.
Fell in love with the film at the time and with Jodie Foster.
I became a Jodie Foster nut.
I literally had a celebrity crush on her.
Yes, I found out later her celebrity has nothing to do with me, which is fine.
But yeah, I mean, I have a crush on her, you know?
Yes.
Well, absolutely.
And the funny thing is when I found out that she identified with public as being a lesbian, I remember I had a couple of friends tease me.
Like, oh, you're a celebrity crushes.
But I was like, yeah, like I ever had a chance anyways.
Like, I know you were this close, right?
Yeah, I was that close.
If she liked men, she would date me.
That's how I look at it.
But I love Jodie Foster.
I always have.
I followed her.
And I went back and rented all these previous Jodie Foster films like Foxes and everything.
I just became a Jodie Foster nut because of Silence Lamps.
And then when they did the sequels, I was like, oh, I better read these books.
Then I have read the books.
So like you, I've read the books.
I enjoy all the movies.
I'm kind of an easy please.
I don't really cycle like, oh, this better be XYZ.
They're all fun films.
Yes.
Nothing will ever beat Silence of the Lambs.
It's a perfect film.
Like it just objectively, it's just a perfect film.
However, Animal Rising and Red Dragon remake with Brett.
They're all serviceable fun films.
I was never bored watching them, but the books are really, you know, the standard to the books
are very well done, obviously.
Yeah.
So that's my background with this Manhunter sort of universe.
So I haven't seen this film till this week.
Okay.
Since I rented it.
Oh, wow.
So in like the early 90s.
Oh, wow.
It's been about 30 years.
I've forgotten like almost everything regarding how I may even felt about it at the time or
what.
I think I just remember Brian Cox then and now we'll get to him, but thinking about his
performance, but before we get to performances, let's actually go through the cast in the film,
which we'll then talk about certain scenes.
There was a couple of like blinking.
You'll miss them.
Did you catch one person?
I couldn't, I was like that.
Is that who I think it is?
It was.
We have to be talking about Chris Elliott.
Yeah.
Okay.
I remember that from the first time I saw it, but I, oh, okay.
I was like, aside from the hair, three blue grains, dark flex went to Brian's end.
The grains are commercial granulated cleanser with chlorine from the cleaning man.
Several particles of dried blood, but not enough to type.
Yeah.
Is that Chris Elliott in Manhunter in 1986?
Like, has he always been 45 or whatever?
Yes.
Yes.
He was born 45.
He was a cop.
His name was Zeller, by the way.
Oh, I didn't know that bunch.
And I, I just love the little world building that films do sometimes.
So he's one of the crime unit or whatever.
They're having the meeting and talking and he's at the round table discussion.
And when the meeting's over, he taps Graham's shoulder as he's exiting in the hallway.
Like, Hey, you know, we'll talk later.
I just love that little world building that they're friends that, you know, we're going to chat later.
They're gonna have a beer later, phone call later.
There's some history here, but then we never see Zeller again.
I don't know why I got to kick out these little world building moments.
Do you have any fan fandom or thoughts on Chris Elliott as an actor or celebrity?
Chris Elliott was very funny on Letterman.
Yes.
You and I come from the same school Letterman.
Yeah.
You know, that show get a life was such a weird anomaly on television.
Wasn't it ahead of time?
A little bit.
Yeah.
And it might've been ahead of my time when I watched it because I remember watching it as a kid and I was like, okay, the jokes are okay.
The short of it was, was that I'd never quite took to it enough to let it settle in, into my heart.
And I know in the second season, he ends up roommates with Brian Doyle Murray, which actually sounds very funny, but it also seems like, well, you don't get the point that he's this loser lives at home.
And once you start taking that away, he rode his bike.
He was a paper boy, but he was like in his forties or thirties or whatever.
So now I find him to be very funny.
I'm not a big cabin boy guy, but I dare you.
Yeah, I know.
He also was an SNL cast member on one of the objectively one of the worst seasons in the history of the show.
Yeah.
And it's not his fault, but it's partially, you know, so I like him in general and it was very fun to see him in there.
And he's funny and he did a full run with the very popular TV show.
Schitt's Creek.
Oh yes.
Yes.
He was a main cast member on that.
He's at a very put this way.
He's that type of celebrity, which I've always said, if I was ever a celebrity, he's kind of that great kind of celebrity where he could just go to the store and buy something.
He's not going to be swarmed.
Like Tom Cruise can't do that.
Brad Pitt can't do that, but he could get away with going to Disneyland with his family.
Maybe a couple of people would recognize you.
You're not going to be swarmed, but he's also very busy and works consistently and has a good pain life.
Yeah.
Occasionally somebody might shout out lines from something about Mary.
They won't stop him.
He'll keep walking.
Or the look at my hand scene from Scary Movie.
Right.
He just kept trying to pick everything up with his little hand.
See, that kind of humor shouldn't be funny, but it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So wait, there's someone else though in this movie that.
Yeah.
There was another one that you blink and you'll miss him.
I must've blinked because I don't remember.
Well, it depends if you saw this TV show.
Did you ever watch The Wire?
So I haven't seen much of it.
It was one of those ones where I like borrowed a DVD set from someone and then they asked for it back.
So yeah.
I don't blame them.
Yes.
I'm going to be one of those people.
The Wire.
I understand it's great.
I just haven't seen all of it.
Yeah.
It literally is one of the best TV shows ever.
If you like The Sopranos, let's say, if you like that kind of level of writing and acting, it's just an incredible.
It's just something about the show.
It's just something incredible about the first episode of the first season.
When you start watching it, you're like, you almost feel like you're in the middle of season three, the middle of the season.
Did I pick up?
Did I put the wrong DVD into my player?
Yeah.
It's David Simon who is responsible for what I think is one of the best television series, Homicide Life on the street.
There you go.
Yes.
I knew what the pedigree was.
I just didn't have HBO at the wrong time.
And I needed physical media to catch up on it.
Well, the guy that plays the commissioner for all the episodes, he was the cop at the end who was faxing the photo of the two fairy.
I was like, oh, I know that guy.
And yeah, it's just fun to see these early roles.
These actors have to kind of pave their way into Hollywood.
And then he ends up being one of the best TV shows ever written.
Yeah.
Starting with the guy who's number one on the call sheet, William Peterson.
I knew him from CSI, you know, not when I first see this movie.
I never really thought that show was great, but I sure watched it for enough years.
And then watching this movie this time showing what was state of the art, cutting edge forensics in 1986.
Maybe they filmed this in 1985.
You're just like, oh, that's really impressive.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, he's clearly the perfect person to have led that show.
There has to be a connection.
I would assume.
I saw the name of the credits when this movie started.
The actors that were going to be in the film.
This is when they were still doing that.
Do you actually know which film was one of the first films, big budget films to stop doing that?
Kind of trivia here.
To stop showing the cast during the opening.
Before the opening.
Unforgiven.
Oh, they just dive right into it.
Yeah.
I think I remember that being a big thing at the time because that was 91, 2.
It feels like about then.
Yeah.
I remember that being the thing where they just said, Unforgiven.
There was no directed by cast, nothing.
They just went right into the film.
I could be wrong, but I remember that being the thing.
Okay.
So when I saw this name, I was like, oh, I know this guy.
He stars in one of my favorite films of all time.
Tombstone.
Oh, sure.
Okay.
So Stephen Lang.
Do you know who he plays in Tombstone?
Do you know the film very well?
Not that well, although I was just in Tombstone, Arizona a week ago.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
Okay.
I'm a Tombstone nerd.
I'm a bit of a Western nerd in general, but Tombstone is like my Rocky of Westerns.
Okay.
It's just, I love this film.
So he's the guy that talks to Wyatt Earp, played by Kurt Russell, and he goes,
La, don't go around here no more, la, dog.
Listen now, Mr. Kansas, la, dog.
La, don't go around here.
Savvy?
I'm retired.
Good.
That's real good.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's real good, la, dog, because la just don't go around here.
Yeah, I heard you the first time.
Winner to the king, $500.
He's that guy, and he's got like a great beard.
He's always drunk looking.
But Stephen Lang is also the baddie in Avatar.
Yeah, that's mostly how I know him.
Yeah, most of the world does.
But he's one of those character actors that every time you see him in the film, you're like, where is he?
Which character is he?
Because he always looks different.
So he is.
He's Freddie Lowndes.
Yeah.
The Nash Cavalier.
The Nash Cavalier.
And again, unfair comparison that in the Brett Ratner version, that role is played by Philip Seymour Hoffman.
Oh.
So very, very unfair.
In the TV series, it was a female character, and Freddie Lowndes had been around for a while by the time they get to the Tooth Fairy storyline.
Yeah.
Since we're talking about him, I was not fond of his performance in this.
I thought it was very, very broad and very like, yeah, would you look at this?
And I was just like, that's what the director told him to do.
I'm sure he did what he was asked.
But I was like, oh, no, I don't like this.
Not at all.
Is it the hair?
You weren't a fan of the hair?
The hair is not great.
It's really the voice, though.
Okay, Graham.
Hey, always nice, huh?
Let's have lunch.
Call my service.
Crawford, always a thrill.
Back to bloom.
I need them on my desk in two hours.
It doesn't even seem like the same human that you see in Avatar.
He's all jacked and huge in those films.
And then in the tombstone, he has that voice.
I did an okay impersonation.
If you know the character, Ike.
That's right.
His name is Ike.
I was like, I watched the film.
I'm embarrassed to say this.
I was like, where was Stephen Lang?
I didn't even know it was him until after I watched it.
Oh, he played Freddy.
This looks so great that it is.
35 or whatever years ago.
But still, I was like, oh, that was him.
Okay.
Yeah.
It was almost the cliche reporter sleazy guy.
You know, I'm just here to get a story for whatever purpose.
Yeah, I agree.
The portrayal wasn't that great.
The one good thing about the portrayal is that he does it in such a way where we don't feel so bad for what happens to him.
Is that why, though?
I got to wonder.
It's like the Tooth Fairy is doing us a favor.
Kind of.
Yeah.
It's a very broad paint-by-numbers character that we've seen in other movies.
While I can't tell you exactly what.
It was very familiar.
You can see why Will Graham hates him so much.
Yes, absolutely.
Now, when I saw this name come up, I was like, oh, I didn't know she was in this film.
Again, it's been 30-odd years since I've seen the movie on VHS.
Joan Allen?
Joan Allen.
Yeah.
I forgot she was in this, yeah.
I forgot she was in it, and I forgot that the character she played was blind.
What do you think of Joan's performance in this film?
I think she's great.
When you see her, it's tough to say that you don't kind of love her and everything.
She's in so much, I'd have to look up what exactly I saw her in.
But I think it's good.
And I had read that she spent some time studying with Institute of Blind or something like that.
So she worked on it.
I think it's not the single most convincing person, sighted person, pretending to be blind.
But I think she does a good job.
This would be one where you have more star power in this version because we see Joan Allen in a lot of things.
The actress Emily Watson plays her in the Brett Ratner.
And so it's a different performance.
But their interaction is a little bit more believable, I think, in that one.
But it was great to see her in this.
And yeah, I didn't remember.
And I think it was the same thing that when the credits started, I'm like, who is she in this?
Well, because she's not introduced until the last third of the film.
So I'm like, again, I'm like, which character?
Is it Graham's wife?
No, that's because, you know, people look different over time.
Like, no, that's, you know, it's a blonde haired woman.
It's somebody completely different.
Is it the woman in the family video?
Because it's kind of grainy.
Is that her?
And so I said, oh, she's that's her.
Okay, now I see her.
So, yeah, she's blind in the movie.
And I do love when she works in the photo development section of the place where the tooth fairy works.
What's her job there as a blind person?
I'm a little confused what she does there.
I think she does something with the chemicals.
And I think she is dealing with the, you know, she's got the lights turned off.
In the book, they develop home movies.
They develop film.
Right.
And I think that in this one, it seems like they do that.
But it's also they service like photo mats, you know, where people would drop off their, well, photo mat, I guess, did it in house.
But they serve as sort of your drop off photo place all over the country.
And that's why it's the there's that moment where it's like peel off the sticker.
Yes.
It's the same place.
That was the toughest thing for them to adapt in the TV series, which was, you know, less than 10 years ago, because it's like, what do you send off to get developed in the 2010s?
Yeah.
Good point.
They do mention in this that, you know, it was sort of like a quota, like, let's hire a disabled person.
Her job, I think, tends to do with the chemicals.
It seems like that's what Dollar Hyde did as well.
But she didn't know him that well at this point.
It's a weird relationship because he comes in to talk to her in her little space there where the lights are off.
They have this weird turning door, I guess, to keep light out, you know, so not to ruin anything.
He offers to give her a ride home and she, like, says no three or four times.
Reba, I got a fly.
Maybe Mr. Donner Hyde can drive home tonight.
No, that's okay.
I'll take care of myself.
No, thanks.
Go on.
Okay.
No, I'll take you.
No, thanks.
I'll owe you 1,200 feet a thousand sea in the morning.
Ride with me.
Thanks, but I'll take the bus.
I do it all the time.
Ride with me.
It would be because I would like you to.
Okay, sure.
Let me get my stuff on.
And he's able to, the Tooth Fairy slash Dollar Hyde, the killer is able to convince her to find,
let's, she agrees to go home with him or get a ride home with him.
But then they end up being, like, romantically involved very quickly.
It was just a weird turnaround from, like, I really can't be bothered going home with you with a free ride to, like, let's have coitus.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
And I think it's, you know, relationship odd.
In the book, you're able to have their relationship start out, you know, have it be a little bit more spaced out.
But in no version of the story do you even get to meet him until, you know, more than halfway through, you know, because the whole point is we don't know this guy.
We don't know what he's doing.
And then they start to build up this world.
And, you know, he, like, lives at home with his grandmother.
That's not represented in this.
And the book and the other film, and I think even the TV series, they all end with, like, a fire at his house.
And they think he's dead.
But that's his grandmother's body.
And that's how he's able to show up at, well, Graham's house.
So there are a lot of elements missing, and they do streamline it because, look, it's a two-hour movie.
Yeah.
But, boy, the relationship really moves along very quickly.
And she wants to touch his face.
And, of course, he stops.
You know, if you don't want to talk, that's okay.
But I hope you will because you're very direct, and I like that.
And I like what you have to say.
When I touch your face, I want to know whether you're smiling or frowning.
I guess I just want to know whether I should be quiet or not.
Take my word for it.
I'm smiling.
Sir, I love the hard grab that he does with the hand that stops her from touching his face.
Because, you know, of course, the classic blind person, you know, let me touch your face to see what you look like or feel what you look like.
And he's got that cleft lip or something going on with his lip.
Does that explain the movie?
Did I miss how he got the injury to the face?
I believe he was born with it.
Is it a cleft lip?
Yeah, he has a cleft lip.
It involves a lot of speech therapy.
And that's why she says to him, you know, you don't need to be embarrassed to speak.
You speak really well because she can hear in his voice that he's very tentative.
Yeah, I think that that's really what it is.
Given more time, it would work.
Even these two actors portraying it.
And who knows?
Is there a scene with them that gets cut?
Is it supposed to be?
Right.
This is actually a few days later.
In the book, he skips one cycle of the moon because he's happy with her.
So it happens over a longer time.
You know, on this, we're still on the deadline of it's going to be the full moon, which I think works much better for a theatrical film.
Okay.
I forgot to mention with Stephen Lang because I did this with the first couple episodes.
Stephen Lang further worked with Michael Mann again in the TV show Crime Story and in Michael Mann's film Public Enemy.
So they worked together again.
Joan Ellen and William Peterson, who plays Will Graham, they worked together previously before this film on stage in the production of Bomb and Gilead.
Oh, they were stage actors together.
Yeah.
They shared very, very few scenes in this film.
Not till the end, but yeah.
Yeah.
He like rescues her out of the house.
Yeah.
That's basically it.
Yeah.
The actress who plays Will Graham's wife is Kim Greist or Greist, who plays Molly Graham.
Have you seen or know who she is or where?
No.
My understanding is this is the only thing I've ever seen her in.
She may have, you know, done dozens of things, but this is the her as Molly Graham is the only time I remember ever seeing her.
Yeah.
It's weird.
Some, you know, it's okay.
Some actors or actresses, they just don't seem to have a career that really takes off.
And she ended her television career with a 2001 episode of Judging Amy.
She did big parts in TV till that point.
And then again, in 2001, her last film was Zoe, but it's not even, you know how like Wikipedia doesn't have a link.
It's such a small film.
There's no even.
There's nothing.
Yeah.
Her last big kind of films were, oh, she was in the parody film Shriek.
If you know what I did last Friday, the 13th.
Okay.
Sure.
There was a moment in time for all of those.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But her last big movies were, she was in the Homeward Bound movies, part one and two.
And she's also in Terry Gilliam's Brazil and Throw Mama from the Train, which you wouldn't think that there'd be any actors in both of those movies.
But there she is.
It's odd that she just ended her time in 2001.
It all ended for her.
So she's still alive.
I always check.
Are they dead?
Is that why?
Yeah.
But no, she just maybe just retired.
I'm good.
I'm done.
Yeah.
I mean, she's fine too.
She's fine in this.
She's lovely.
Yeah.
She's able to sort of convey the frustration with her husband, how she doesn't want him to do this, but knows, you know, it's sort of like, you know, any police story or honestly, even like superhero story.
It's like, you're the only one who can do this.
I don't want you to do it.
But if you don't do it, people are going to die.
That dynamic, you know, why Will Graham gets back into this even after he had been out, which again is I'm going to harp on the ending that man doesn't use is that's what he gets for getting back into it.
You know, he because I think he like rips out his throat or something.
You know, Will Graham is referenced in Silence of the Lambs, the novel still convalescing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's not, you know, some tropes, you know, the wife isn't supportive or the poor cop has to deal with troubles at home.
I'll give her complete credit as a character anyways, that she was like, okay, do this, get this out of your system, whatever you're going to do, but come home to me, you know, and I liked that she was supportive and they were, they had a Hollywood ending at the end there as a family.
They met at the beach.
It was a very, it was done on purpose.
They met at the beach where the victims were to show that they're at peace, you know, that he's at peace and that he can live his life with his family.
And as you're a family man and I'm a family man.
So there's always that part of me that likes, yeah, good.
The family's together.
They're not destroyed.
Yay.
But yeah, she was serviceable, but it's odd that she just didn't really catch on because I thought she was, again, she looks good and she played it well, but her acting career never really took off.
Yeah.
I think if this movie were bigger, it probably would have at least opened up more television roles, which, you know, in those days could possibly translate to character work, at least in films.
But, you know, this film was not particularly appreciated.
And even now it's mostly like, well, look at this in the context of the body of Michael Mann's work.
Look at this in comparison to other Hannibal Lecter stories.
And that's probably the only way it's looked at now.
Again, that's when I first saw it was because of Science Lams and people are like, did you know they already made a movie about Hannibal?
And everyone's like, what movie is that?
They're like, it's called Manhunter.
And everybody's like, ah, they go look for it.
So I would, again, I would love to have been at the video store working at the time when people are coming in.
Can I get Manhunter?
Like, well, we only had, we had one copy for eight years.
Nobody asked for it.
It's still in the plastic, sir.
Let me, let me dust it off and get it for you.
Yeah.
Because I guarantee you there was a lineup for the movie.
Because, you know, as you know, the VHS stores back, they'd only hold so many copies, physical copies.
And so people had to wait for it to be returned.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
And they might have had to order a second or third copy of this because people were looking for it.
Let us know, folks.
Let us know.
Yeah.
Right into the show.
Especially if you worked at a video store in this era.
I'd like to hear how many people were coming in.
Did you read anything about why they didn't call it Red Dragon?
Yes.
Because when they went into production, it was supposed to be called Red Dragon.
Yeah.
And interestingly, I don't know, when your film is made by Michael Mann, you probably just shouldn't call it Manhunter.
You know, I mean, it's really that simple.
It just kind of sounds, you know, cheesy.
There were two things.
They didn't want it to be confused with Kung Fu movies.
And there had been a film in the last year or something that they didn't.
Yeah, the year previous.
I'm sorry.
Which Dragon movie was it?
It was the Year of the Dragon.
Year of the Dragon.
Sorry.
Yes, yes, yes.
Year of the Dragon.
And they didn't want to invoke memories of that because that movie wasn't successful.
That's so weird.
Yeah.
Well, you know, look, that's how studio executives earn their living is decisions like that.
But Manhunter is not a good name.
And I think Brian Cox all the way down.
Everybody says they don't like that title for the film.
And, you know, they would be an alternative title you would use on the spot.
That's not Red Dragon.
Yeah.
Well, you don't want to call it the Tooth Fairy because that's confusing, you know.
Then you have The Rock.
Was it The Rock that did the Tooth Fairy or was it Vin Diesel?
I can't remember now.
Oh, yeah.
I think it's The Rock, but I'm actually not sure.
You know, if you all of a sudden told me actually it was Hulk Hogan, I'd believe you, you know.
Because he did The Nanny.
Did he do The Nanny?
No, I forgot what that movie was called.
But yeah.
So, yeah, I don't know.
It's hard because this movie should be called, this story should be called Red Dragon because that's what it's about.
And then if you give it more of a nebulous like The Becoming or something, then it's like, well, what exactly is that?
The most interesting part of this movie is this serial killer, even though the hero is the guy trying to catch him.
I don't have a good alternative title.
No, yeah.
It's just like Silence of the Lambs in that the title, you're like, why is it called this?
And it wasn't until the dialogue that Hannibal Lecter has with Clarice that, oh, it's about her on the farm with the lambs and their crime or their bane.
What became of your lamb, Clarice?
I killed him.
You still wake up sometimes, don't you?
You wake up in the dark and hear the screaming of the lamb.
Yes.
And you think if you save poor Catherine, you could make them stop, don't you?
You think if Catherine lives, you won't wake up in the dark ever again to that awful screaming of the lambs.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Thank you, Clarice.
Thank you.
The whole way that's brought in, oh, that's why it's called Science of the Lambs.
That's what I like about Red Dragon is they dress it the same way in this movie and in the book, I'm sure.
It's been a while since I've read it.
But the idea like, oh, that's why it's called Red Dragon.
It all comes together.
But when you're watching this movie called Manhunter and they bring up the term Red Dragon, you're just kind of like, okay, cool.
Like there's no like aha moment, you know?
Oh, and apparently they use them in promotional photos.
They film sequences with him with the tattoo on, but then they don't show it in the movie, which I wonder how long it took him to get that tattoo.
Tom Noonan, the actor.
How long did it take him to get the tattoo on?
And then they don't even show it.
The also missing from this version is him going to the museum and eating the artwork, the Red Dragon painting, because he feels like that.
The other two versions, television and Brett Ratner's and of course the novels where it originated.
It was always such a random thing that like, oh, wow.
Yeah, we knew this guy was crazy, but he ate a painting because he thinks that's what's going to help him become the thing in the painting.
Sure.
Oh, yeah.
Good catch.
All right.
Now, before we get to Brian Cox, I think we'll talk about Dennis, even though he's built oddly enough.
I don't know if you're going to talk about the child actor who plays Kevin, his son.
Yeah, no kid actors.
I don't know anything about him from anything else.
Maybe he's only ever did this.
Kid actors are a total crapshoot.
Sometimes you get kids who are perfect for the movie they're in.
Sometimes Judd Apatow casts his kids when he shouldn't.
But I thought that this kid was good and he was believable in that he wasn't a great actor.
He was okay is what I'm saying.
And he's trying to talk to his dad and then he's like, all right, let's buy groceries.
And watching the sequence 40 years later in the supermarket, it takes me back to all these products that don't exist anymore.
This era where Captain Crunch was missing and his face was on the box with a question mark.
And I was like remembering all of these things from my childhood.
But I thought he was good.
And he does this moment that I think is why I think I'm even thinking about the kid.
He's like, Mom, I'm in here.
I'm in the kitchen.
So that his mom knows where he is because he is worried about his dad being alone with her because he read.
Even in this era, you know, kids are like, hey, I read about your dad in the Tattler.
And apparently your dad's crazy.
Barry's mom had this newspaper.
It said you were in a special hospital.
Well, it was a regular hospital.
And I was transferred into the psychiatric wing.
That bothers you, doesn't it?
I don't know.
Was it because in the papers it said it was this man Lecter?
Mm-hmm.
What happened?
While Lecter was attacking college girls.
And he killed them.
How?
In bad ways.
I think that that kid handled it well.
Is he great?
Should they do an AFI tribute to him?
No, but I think it works in the context of the movie.
They won't have to.
The kid was played by David Seaman.
Okay.
Well, that's unfortunate for being in high school.
I mean, being in elementary school, whatever age he is.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this was his first film for a kid actor.
So he did okay for his first time on film.
His next film, he played a beachgoer in Jaws the Revenge.
Oh, my God.
He's in two classics.
Yeah.
And then he did a TV episode of Spencer for Hire.
And then he did another feature film, The New Adventures of Pippi Longstocking, which he actually sang two songs.
He sang Scrubbing Day and Running Away from the soundtrack.
Then he went back to TV, did one episode of Highway to Heaven.
Then he did another feature film called A Promise to Keep in 1990.
And then he did one last acting credit and an episode of Law and Order in 91.
And then he retired from acting.
Well, you know, he really packed a lot in there.
The fact that he sang two songs in Pippi Longstocking is pretty impressive.
I have a feeling it was his parents bringing him to Hollywood.
They're like, hey, you kind of look like Ricky Schroeder.
Yeah, that's true.
You know, you got the blonde hair.
You're kind of like the Wish.com version of Ricky Schroeder.
Let's capitalize on that hair and that blonde hair.
Timu Ricky Schroeder.
Yeah, that's right.
I think he probably said, Mom, I'm sick.
I don't want to do this.
I don't want to do this.
I don't want to do this.
Yeah.
He quit and they're like, fine.
We tried because it was like a five year run and nothing really panned out.
They're like, fine, fine, fine, fine.
Well, also, you get older and you don't look like that anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's why Epstein's Island.
It's the reason the kids never age, but the adults do.
The reason the turnover there.
Yeah.
Oh, geez.
Hey, you're not cute anymore.
You're 20.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
The next character.
Sorry.
You want to talk about Dennis Farina?
Yes.
Who I love, by the way.
Oh, sure.
Tell me why you love him.
And so many things.
It's interesting because you mentioned law and order a moment ago.
There's a point where he comes onto law and order.
And the thing I appreciated as a native New Yorker, they didn't pretend he wasn't from Chicago
because he sounds like that.
If you tried to tell me that Dennis Farina was a New Yorker, I'd be like, nope, it's tough
enough that NYPD blue would shoot on the streets of Los Angeles.
And it would be the brightest street you've ever been on and be like, yep, this is the East
village in New York.
Where it's never been this bright a day because they don't have the tall buildings to block
out the sun.
I've seen him in a number of things.
He's a very good character actor who briefly ascended to sort of like, I don't know, not
leading man, but like a notch above, you know, a good like featured performer.
And I think him as Jack Crawford is kind of great because he is a very no nonsense Chicago.
You know, he's, he does come off more of like a, like a police captain than a guy who heads
behavioral sciences at the FBI.
But I like his dynamic with William Peterson a lot.
Yeah.
He did a great job in this.
And I don't know if you caught it when we talked about thief when he was in that he played a
goon and thief, but he, he's actually a retired police officer.
He worked.
Yeah.
Okay.
So he was able to dive into that persona.
Look, if you know how to be a cop and you get to play one on TV, you don't even have to
pretend what it's like to be a cop.
Like that was my job.
Now I just have to memorize lines.
I'm telling you, that's not a bad way to go.
Like live as a cop for 20 odd years and become an actor.
Hey, I need you to get into the mind of a police officer.
Got it.
Yep.
All right.
All right.
I'm there now.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So good for him.
And yeah, he's got a very unique kind of face too.
You know, it's like, oh, that face.
I've seen that face before.
Yeah.
It's funny.
Cause he's got black hair in this.
Usually you see him with gray hair and you're like, oh yeah, he always looked like that.
Just younger.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
He was like a slightly younger, but still old face.
Is he a dead or alive?
Go.
I do know that he passed away and you referenced it on your episode with Kay.
Okay.
Yeah.
2013.
Yeah.
He passed away a long time ago.
He was under 70.
69.
Yeah.
Crazy.
That's too young.
Yeah.
He did a great job.
Of course we know he worked later in several episodes of Miami Vice, of course, crime story,
big Michael Mann.
I think you can probably thank Michael Mann for his career, quite frankly.
I think you're correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
Now let's go back a little bit and talk about Brian Cox.
Of course, we've touched on already.
He played Hannibal Lecter.
There are mixed responses.
Of course you go online, but I'm interested in what is your final analysis of Brian Cox.
Okay.
I want you to do two things.
Well, you've already kind of hinted at it.
What do you think of his performance in this film?
Try as best as you can that no other films or books exist outside of this film.
How does he measure against Anthony Hopkins, of course, go?
So I think that, again, in a vacuum, this is a very interesting character.
So anybody who understands what makes this character interesting is going to be able to do a great job with it.
And I do think he does a very good job with it.
And, you know, he's very polite to, you know, the women on the phone where he's trying to get Will Graham's address.
Dr. Sidney Bloom, please.
He's not in, but I'll connect you to his office.
What's his secretary's name again?
Martha King. Just a moment, please.
Martha King's death.
Hi, Martha.
Martha doesn't come in night.
Maybe you can help me.
This is Bob Greer of Blaine and Edwards Publishing Company.
Dr. Bloom asked me to send a copy of The Psychiatrist and the Law to someone.
Martha never sent me the address and phone number.
She'll be in in the morning.
Well, I've got to catch Federal Express in about five minutes.
I'd be immensely appreciative if you could pull it out of a Rolodex for me.
I don't see a Rolodex.
I'll bet you has a call caddy right next to her phone.
Yeah.
Well, zip that little pointer right on down to the letter G.
All right.
The name we're looking for, last name Graham, the man the book is supposed to be sent to.
And Mr. Will Graham.
Federal Bureau of Investigation, 10th and Pennsylvania, Washington, D.C.
Now, I'll bet it has his home address there, too.
3680 DeSoto Highway, Captiva, Florida.
Thank you.
So very much.
Yeah.
And, you know, he is obviously a little bit off kilter.
And there's a moment where he's on the phone with Will and he's got these like really thick socks on and his feet are up on the wall.
And you're just like, yeah, look how casually he's having this conversation with this guy whose home address he gave to a serial killer.
And I think it's very interesting.
And sort of he plays it in a way that he forgets.
Will Graham says, well, you had a disadvantage.
You're crazy.
But you might be curious to see if you're smarter than the person I'm looking for.
Then by implication, you think you're smarter than me since you quote me.
No.
I know that I'm not smarter than you.
Then how did you catch me, Will?
You had disadvantages.
What disadvantages?
You're insane.
Yeah.
That's a great moment.
I forgot the answer.
When that scene came on with Dr. Lecter.
And I think he didn't know.
That's why it was fascinating.
So when that scene happens, I had forgotten the answer.
I think Lecter didn't actually know.
I don't think he.
I think he genuinely want to know.
Like, how did you?
How did you get?
How did you get one up on me?
And that's just such a fantastic response.
It's such a well-written answer.
And I don't know if I would ever come up with that answer.
No.
You're insane.
Yeah.
That's the one advantage I have over you.
As smart as you are and as evil and genius that you are, you're still insane.
With what comes to him in the script pages, and we can assume Brian Cox would have read the novel before portraying it.
Maybe he did.
Maybe he didn't.
But I'm just going to assume.
He strikes me as somebody that would take the time to do that.
And I think he gives a very good, you know, a very unique interpretation.
Obviously, nobody had portrayed this guy prior.
And I think you do believe him.
I think they do the character disservice by Will Graham explaining to his son that he killed some college girls.
Whereas the character is so much more interesting.
Right.
That he was a psychiatrist who started, you know, leading his patients astray so that he could not only kill them, but eat them.
I don't even think he's a cannibal in this.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
There's no reference to that.
Yeah.
No.
And there's some legal reason why they spell his name wrong.
It's L-E-C-K-T-O-R.
I looked that up at some point, and it's obviously spelled the way it is in the movie, you know, in Silence of the Lambs and obviously all the other ones.
There's some licensing agreement, and maybe it was at the time, maybe the name didn't clear in some way.
There was somebody that they had to spell.
You know, they had to spell it different.
I actually don't remember what it was.
It's such a minor thing, but according to the internet, it's for an unknown reason.
And that was the theory was that there was some sort of licensing of the name, but good for Dino De Laurentiis, by the way, who gets in on this movie.
So he gets a part of everything Hannibal Lecter hereafter.
So very, very wise being involved producing this.
But so, yeah, so I think he's good compared to Anthony Hopkins is sort of unfair.
It is kind of like when they adapt a film to a television series and you go like, oh, okay.
Yeah.
The TV actor did an okay job.
I mean, MASH is a perfect example.
You know, Alan Alda, a very accomplished actor, did that role for I think 11 years, but he's not Elliot Gould, you know?
So it's, you know, so it's good.
It's just different.
The interesting thing is that I watched this on Amazon Prime and I didn't realize that Amazon Prime now will include commercials.
And there was a Burger King commercial voiced by Brian Cox while I was watching this.
So I'm like, oh, okay.
So Hannibal Lecter wants me to have a delicious fish sandwich.
You know what?
I don't think I'm going to trust him.
I don't want to know what's in that fish sandwich.
I was going to say, if he's narrating eating meat in the middle of a-
Oh, he was.
Yeah, he was.
I'm like, that can't be an accident, right?
That's funny.
Yeah.
He has been in tons of stuff.
Like you look at his filmography, stage TV, movies.
Funny enough, when he was auditioning, he was asked to have his back turned to the casting agent so they could just see what he sounded like as Lecter.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Yeah.
They're probably like, man, your face is ugly.
No, I'm sorry.
Again, another unique face, like Dennis Farina, unique face.
Very unique.
Tom Noonan, very unique face.
Stephen Lang, very character-like faces.
We talked about this in the previous episode that we just recorded.
But in the previous episode I did with Doug, we talked about the same thing.
These actors back in the 80s, there weren't these cosmopolitan GQ-type actors.
I guess we forget that a lot of these early 70s and 80s and a little bit of the 90s actors, they kind of look rough.
They had very characteristic-type features to their face.
They weren't all Brad Pitt.
In fact, when Brad Pitt came out with Legends of the Fall, he sort of changed the game a little bit because that pretty boy, and who happens?
He's one of my favorite actors.
He's a great actor.
But he just happens to be very handsome.
But that sort of changed the game.
Everyone thought, well, if I'm handsome like Brad Pitt, maybe I'll be a good actor too.
I think it kind of changed the game a little bit because pre-Brad Pitt, you didn't really go to the movies and see the good-looking actors.
You referenced Wayne Peterson and Joan Allen.
You get a lot of stage actors, and a lot of stage actors do not have acting as their primary profession.
It's something that they do in addition to the regular job.
And the cliche is that a lot of actors are waiters and in the service industry.
But it makes sense because you're sort of freed up to go on auditions.
And a lot of comedians and things can work in construction or sort of things like that.
So you would get people who this wasn't all that they knew.
And I think that, you know, I don't know that Timothee Chalamet ever worked with his hands.
You know, I'm just guessing.
I could be wrong.
Harrison Ford was a carpenter, for example.
Yeah, right, right.
Exactly.
He was a carpenter while they were casting Star Wars.
You know?
Yeah.
It's a perfect.
There's something to it.
There is something to that.
Call me old school.
But there's something to these old time actors.
They're old now.
But when they started out, they kind of suffered a little bit.
They struggled.
They were truly struggling actors who weren't just picked out because of their TikTok or Instagram reel or whatever.
They actually struggled.
Okay.
One last number.
Brian Cox.
Funny enough, he was in a TV show for an episode called Manhunt.
Oh.
So when he did Manhunter, he thought it was a sequel.
No.
And he actually voiced a video game called Manhunt.
He's really got a sequel.
He's really.
Yeah.
He's the first guy you think of when you have the word Manhunt.
Yeah.
They came with a video game in 2003 called Manhunt.
He played director Lionel Starkweather.
I love it.
I read that the phrase Manhunter came from a review that Stephen King wrote of Red Dragon, the novel.
Like it jumped out.
Really?
And never changed the title.
Yeah.
So he referred to, I guess he referred to Will Graham as a Manhunter.
Yeah.
Well, that gives a little bit more credit, I guess.
Yeah.
To some degree.
To some degree.
Yeah.
It also makes for a great adult film, whatever side of the fence you're on.
The Manhunter series.
That could be a good one, too.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
All right.
And starring Brian Cox.
See you.
See you.
You know what?
I don't usually go on other shows and do this, but I think you needed that.
Card of electric would approve.
Oh, wow.
I feel actually I feel very honored to get the bell.
Okay.
Next, we have Tom Noonan.
Yeah.
Another rough looking individual.
Is he really as tall as he is?
Is he?
Is he?
Question.
Is he really six, seven?
Because if he's not, they did a great job.
You know, they, they have it on his driver's license.
I don't know if he's actually that tall.
I didn't think to look that up.
I would assume, I assume generally that most people are not actually, you know, as tall
as six, seven, but.
Well, I'm going to, I'm going to break.
This is insider baseball, but I literally just finished listening to an episode of who
are these podcasts where Kara was making fun of podcasters, Googling on the fly, like boomers.
Yeah.
I saw that.
I saw that.
I just did it.
Yes.
I, I Googled on the fly.
So he's six, five.
Okay.
That's Hey, close enough.
That's very tall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, you put him in Tom Cruise shoes and he's six, seven.
So yeah.
So he is a very, he's one of those faces with like, Oh, I've seen him before.
Yeah.
And he's made his business for being kind of odd and tall and lanky and weird looking good
for him.
He is not Brad Pitt.
Would you say he's not a Brad?
I would say he's not Brad Pitt.
And in terms of casting, you're going for something very specific with Francis, Francis
dollar height.
It's fascinating that he's six, five because on screen, he is very meek.
He has a very soft voice, but clearly that's what they want.
They want that contrast that this is the kind of person that despite his height, he is obviously
still kind of struggling with who he is.
And, you know, much like Buffalo Bill in silence of the lambs, you know, I mean,
I think Thomas Harris has a type for his, you know, for his, not protagonists, his antagonists,
I guess, you know, for his villains.
And I think he does a very good.
And again, it's a very serviceable performance, but it, once again, Brett Ratner has Ray Fiennes
in this role.
So it's, it is very tough comparison.
It's tough to come out ahead.
One of the best actors in the world.
He's yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's very unfair to be comparing actors to Anthony Hopkins and Ray Fiennes, you know,
Ed Norton's not as tough as those two, but even that, you know, very true.
So again, he plays Francis dollar high, who gets nicknamed the tooth fairy in the movie and
the end in the book who wants to become the red dragon.
I found, I will say this.
Okay.
The weakest part of the film and the most confusing one, again, is the relationship he had with
the blind woman, Reba McLean, who you worked with, because they really kind of hit off.
They have, like I said, they had coitus.
She comes on to him.
She kisses his cleft lips and all.
It doesn't seem to be bothered by that.
They have sex.
He's not bothered by his six foot seven frame and all this stuff.
Then they went into this weird, he sees her with another man who takes her home from work,
drove her home, and he's picking out, what did he pick out of her hair?
Lint or something?
She's like pollen.
Like pollen.
Yeah.
She said, is it pollen?
But the way he sees it, it looks like he's like pushing her hair back and about to kiss
her though.
They don't kiss.
It is filmed.
It's filmed with the light coming through the door because that's his, the way he's looking
at it, like a romantic light.
It's got this very romantic feel, but the reality is that he's just picking branches
out of her hair and he's killed for it.
But I just love how we as a viewer is what I'm getting at.
We, we, we see him being kind of human because they, they, they have sex the next morning.
You know, he's talking to her nicely at the beach and says, I'll go get your purse.
Like it's very boyfriend, girlfriend.
Like they have this, this is this alternate universe where the tooth fairy is almost cured.
He's human for, for a second.
Well, like I said, in the book, that is what happens.
And the reason he doesn't want her to go, but he sedates his grandmother.
He doesn't want her to go back in the house because now his grandmother's awake and she
can't see his house.
The most chilling moment in any version of this is he's sitting there doing homework, watching
the next family he's going to kill while she's just there.
What are you watching?
Cause she can't see anything, you know?
Yeah.
So he's watching the whole movie.
They showed in the film that he's watching the whole movie.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So that's a great moment in this version.
And it's a great moment in every version of it is that, you know, he, so she can't see
anything, but yeah.
And he is cured for a time.
I, my memory is that he skips one cycle of the moon and that buys a little bit more time.
That's not sure.
It works much better in the film.
It works much better in the film that they keep with that deadline because they are pushing
towards it.
You know, the, the, the jet is ready to go.
You know, we're going to just have to go to the next crime scene.
We'll be ready.
We'll get there when it's fresh, you know, all that stuff.
I think that man does a great job with the pacing of the story.
He's choosing to take out of this book.
That is better than his movie.
I don't know why it seemed very, Oh, poor tooth.
I know.
Yeah.
I know.
I'm really bad for the tooth fairy.
Who's literally, you know, burn people alive.
She was off their face with his fake teeth.
And it's like, Oh, don't forget that.
He jammed shards of mirror into children's eyes, you know?
So let's not forget just what a terrible.
We forget, but there's a small part of it.
We're all feeling bad for the tooth fairy.
Yeah, exactly.
But I do agree that the relationship happens so quickly in this film.
And I guess you're trying to move it along.
The Brett Ratner movie seems to give it a little bit more air.
And I think that helps.
Didn't he have trouble with kids?
Was he the one?
Was he?
I think you might be thinking of Brian Singer.
Oh, what was Brett's issue?
Just sexual assault?
Everybody thinks he's an asshole, I think, is Brett Ratner's issue.
But by the way, what you said could also be true.
I actually don't know.
He's also a bit of a hack.
But, you know, other movies, I just feel like he had the right toys in his sandbox to tell a Red Dragon story that I felt was more faithful of an adaptation.
Yeah.
So why can't people just not do those things and just enjoy being a director?
I don't know.
Because you get the opportunity to do things that you never thought you'd get the opportunity to do.
Unfortunately.
And that doesn't excuse it.
It just explains it.
Yeah.
I guess so.
Look, I get to be around people.
And yeah.
I have power over them.
And now.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
All right.
So yeah.
Tom did a great job.
Yeah.
Other than the.
I just found it funny.
Me feeling sorry for the tooth fairy.
Yeah.
No, it wouldn't be that.
By the way, it wouldn't be the same, the same casting director.
I'm sure.
Obviously, different people working on it.
But coming up with Ted Levine to play the Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs.
You're kind of getting similar types.
They don't look anything alike.
But you're sort of looking for a quality of imposing physically, but really meek inside.
And I think that Tom Noonan does a fairly decent job of portraying that.
When you speak of a Buffalo Bill and the tooth fairy, does Thomas Harris have this?
He may both serial killers seem to be gender confused or sexuality confused.
Much more with Buffalo Bill.
But yes.
But why?
Well, I wonder what his reasons for this.
It's odd that.
I don't know anything about his personal life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That could be something that he's sort of working through with writing.
I do think especially a book that comes out in 1981.
That is a very sensationalized idea.
You could see, obviously, the National Enquirer is the real version of the Tattler calling somebody like this the tooth fairy because of the bites.
And you could see a serial killer being infuriated by that.
He's like, no, I'm the Red Dragon.
You know?
But yeah.
Good point.
I think Buffalo Bill doesn't have a problem with his nickname.
He doesn't want to be something else.
He's got all the moths and everything.
Buffalo Bill is a scary name.
That's a scary serial killer name.
Yeah.
It's a scary football team to root for.
Ask our buddy Carl.
All right.
The last, the star of the movie.
Again, he played a very blink if you'll miss a role in Thief where he played the bouncer who tells James Conn to stop kidnapping people in his own bar.
William Peterson.
And again, I've said it on that episode, but I'll repeat it here in case someone's watching this for the first time.
I became a fan of William Peterson to some degree because I'm such a Western nerd and I'm a Young Guns 1 and 2 nerd.
And he plays, of course, Pat Garrett in Young Guns 2, who chases down Billy the Kid, played by Emilio Estevez.
So I really enjoyed William Peterson in that role.
I thought he did a great job.
That was the first time I saw him in any movie of note at the time.
So I was already a fan of Young Guns 2.
So when I went to go back and watch Manhunter because of the science of the lambs, I saw that he was in this.
I was like, oh, this is really cool.
He had a starring role before because I thought Young Guns 2 was obviously it's not a starring role.
He was behind Sutherland, Lou Diamond Phillips.
He was like fourth or fifth down the lane.
Sixth to the Jon Bon Jovi soundtrack.
Yeah, pretty much.
And I guess I almost I would say felt bad, but I thought it was odd that he would be in a starring film and then now not really in the starring role some years later, a few years later.
But when you look at it in the context of the reception to this film, that's what I mean.
Yeah, of course.
He might not have been leading man material in 1985, 1986.
He might not have had it in him at that point.
Maybe.
But when CSI came out, I actually started watching CSI because of my fandom of Young Guns 2.
I was like, oh, I'll watch this guy at a TV show.
And I ended up just quite enjoying his.
I thought he did a great job in a hammy, corny way.
And then the same with Kiefer Sutherland in 24.
I'm a fan of Kiefer Sutherland because of the Young Guns films.
And so when Kiefer did 24, I was like, oh, sure, he's going to do a TV show.
It ended up being a great TV show.
It was a great show.
Yeah.
I'm a fan of him from Lost Boys, but we're coming at it from the same idea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We saw him in a movie and we liked him.
Yeah.
I have yet to see To Live and Die in LA.
I heard that.
That's really good.
I think Gene Simmons from Kiss is the villain in that, or I might be thinking of a long film.
No.
No, I might be thinking of a different film.
Because Gene Simmons did some acting in the early 80s and the band suffered for it, but
this isn't the show to talk about that.
The most famous is a Tom Selleck movie called Runaway, where he is the villain.
And I have to actually try and figure out which film it was.
But no, Never Too Young to Die.
I'm sorry.
I got my films confused.
I think Never Too Young to Die, I believe, has John Stamos in the lead.
So I've definitely mixed up those films.
That's okay.
So yeah, William Friedkin, who did The Exorcist.
Yeah.
He directed William Peterson, starring role in that movie.
And I've heard good things about this film.
I really wanted to see that one as well.
Maybe we'll do a Friedkin season.
Who knows?
Okay.
Yeah.
So anyways, I thought William Peterson did it.
I actually, I liked him in this.
And maybe I'm being, maybe I just, because I like him.
Maybe I'm being, I even tried to watch it objectively.
There's a couple of writing moments I wasn't crazy about, but I know they had to, because
he's talking out loud and he's like, I'm going to get you, you son of a bitch.
I'm going to get you, my man.
I know he has to expose things out loud because these are his inner thoughts.
We can't read them.
You know, we get them in a book, but he has to tell the audience how he's coming to these
conclusions.
So there's a lot of monologue where he's just saying, this is how I'm getting to it.
And I will say there were some big leaps that every time I watch these movies where these
cops or detectives find the serial killer with all these clues, I'm the guy who's going
to be working the desk my whole life.
Because I could never figure this out.
You know, like all the connected, okay, it's all about you see things.
I'm like, yeah, we all see things except for the poor blind woman in this film.
And then he goes on, you know, he goes, it's about mirrors, mirrors.
It's about windows and light and, and you're filming, filming, filming.
Yes.
You work at a film place that film developed.
Like, how did you get there?
The way that he comes up with the idea that he, there's, there's talcum powder on her and
there isn't any in the bathroom.
He had to touch her.
So I think it does a decent job showing that.
And even with the Hugh Dancy version of this character, they did have him narrate a lot.
You know, and look in this era in particular, you can have the device he's holding the tape
recorder so he can listen back to it.
I mean, they did that on the X-Files too.
You know, so the idea is it's helping us, but yeah, the times where he speaks to the camera,
I don't know that I buy him in the mental duress that he has.
You know, I don't think that the William Peterson conveys it to me.
The scene where he runs out after talking to Lecter is the one time where I think we believe it.
And what a beautiful shot that is.
Whatever that building is that has that spiral ramp that he keeps running down and he's running
out of a mental hospital.
So obviously people at the door are like, oh, all right, he's got a badge.
I guess we're going to let him go.
You know, and that's how Freddie Lowndes gets the picture of him that ends up on the front
page of the Tattler.
There's not enough of that struggle, I think.
And again, it's a movie.
You don't have the time.
But, and that's why when I saw what I sent to you, which was this deleted final scene where
he goes to the home of the family that he ends up saving.
And they, at this point, understand that they're saving.
Why the FBI would tell somebody that, by the way, you were next on his list.
I don't know.
That's fine.
We can move on from that.
But the scene doesn't work because what I was reading is that some people interpreted that
as in like, does he have this guy in his head enough?
And we're supposed to wonder, is he going to kill this family?
And I'm like, no, I never thought that even for a second.
I think he gets it out of his system when he shoots this guy and he reunites with his family.
So in this version that Michael Mann's choosing to tell, I think this version doesn't lend itself
to that.
The Hugh Dancy version, I could see him going out and killing somebody.
He had a weird relationship with Lecter in that series.
But so that scene for me, you know, a lot of times you see deleted scenes and you go, yeah,
thank God, you know, because it doesn't work in any way.
I don't know what you thought when you saw that.
I'm on the same side of the fence with you.
I did like seeing his face so beaten up and bloodied after the fight.
It's kind of cool to see him like just looking.
So I was just in a fight because I don't remember seeing him looking that way.
They didn't really.
He has like scratches on his face when he reunites with his family.
But that's more to show that it's time has passed and he's healing physically at least.
But yeah, this is probably like the next day.
I don't know what this is.
I thought it was the same night because it was dark.
You know, it could be.
You're right.
You're right.
Yeah.
But I don't know how this family finds out that they're next on the list.
That's the concern.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I have a question before we close up.
And I think you might be able to answer it.
How did he?
We mentioned that, you know, he got the upper hand on Lecter by saying because Lecter is
insane.
But what was the Lecter did to him again?
And he got caught by Lecter.
Isn't that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he has some injuries.
So the smart thing they did.
Again, I have never sung the praises of Brett Ratner more in my life.
That film opens with Will Graham interviewing Lecter, the psychiatrist of one of the deceased.
And you see the moment where he figures it out because there's like an anatomy book that
specifically, you know, clues him into it.
And then he realizes it.
And he's like, okay, oh, thanks for your time.
Excuse me.
But Lecter realizes that he's been figured out.
So he attacks him.
He tries to, you know, I don't know if he tries to tear out his throat or something.
I think it's a parallel to what Dollar Hyde does to him at the end of the novel.
You know, it's like it's a very similar injury.
Yeah.
Because it was sort of talked about in the film, was it not?
Was it just a physical altercation they had?
Yeah.
And he just overpowered him?
Was that just old-fashioned overpowered the doctor?
I don't remember exactly how it works in the Brett Ratner film.
I was going to rewatch it before this, but I just kind of ran out of time.
And I think that, yeah, he overpowers him or he shoots him or, you know, maybe the backup shows up in time because he's able to get a message out, you know, that I need help here.
That's how they get him, though.
And that's how he catches him, is that it is just something very minor in his office that Will Graham is a profiler is able to pick up on.
But Lecter being brilliant, which he doesn't come off as brilliant in this movie, by the way.
He's not a psychiatrist from all I can tell.
Do they call him Dr. Lecter?
Or do they just call him Hannibal Lecter?
I think he was referred to as doctor in this movie.
Okay.
He could be an OBGYN for all we know in this movie, you know?
Yeah, he's not a cannibal.
That's the thing.
When they made this film, he was an interesting character.
I think we're supposed to be, as a first-time viewer of this film, not knowing the Lecter character that became because of Anthony Hopkins' performance, that I think the Tooth Fairy was supposed to be more interesting.
Yeah.
And the one thing that I read that Michael Mann thought that the Lecter character is interesting.
So let's not have even as much of him as there is in the book.
Let's hold it back.
Let's people want more of him.
And again, if you're thinking you might make more of these, him still locked up as – because remember, this movie, Manhunter, is made before Silence of the Lambs.
The novel's even been published.
It might have been written.
There's no notion of, like, do they tell more stories with this guy?
So he might have his plan for more Will Graham, Hannibal Lecter with the K stories.
Maybe that's part of the reason.
And that's why you never save it for the sequel, because you might not get to make the sequel, Ryan.
That's right.
That's fair.
Regarding your question about him visiting the family, I did have a note here.
Michael Mann added the final scene of Graham visiting the family next on Dollar Heights Kill List.
It shows them safe, helping Graham return to a normal mindset after being in a homicidal state to catch the killer.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So he returns to – okay.
So that actually makes sense.
It's not the way that people on Reddit thought of it, which was like, is he going to kill them?
I'm like, no, I didn't think that.
It was basically like a trust but verify.
Okay.
Yeah.
Everyone's safe.
I don't know where you're moving to next.
Oh, anything you want now.
We'll do the wrap.
Yeah.
Because I have to talk about the most important problem with this movie.
Oh, yeah.
Let's talk about the problem.
It's very controversial.
Oh.
I hate the music in this movie.
Oh, yeah.
We forgot to talk about the music.
Oh.
What I'll start with, like, I always start with the thing that I think is good.
The usage of Enigata David at the end is amazing.
That's great.
And Michael Mann got that from interviewing an actual serial killer, and it was a song that he used, and he loved the idea.
Oh, wow.
So I love the visual of putting the 8-track in to disorient Ms. McClain, Reba, and also just having it play and sort of – you got that, like, long drum solo while they're outside before Graham jumps in through the glass.
And it comes back to the song as he jumps through the glass.
That's great.
But I hate this era of shitty 80s synth pop.
And I never thought that I would hear a worse song called Heartbeat than the one Don Johnson did.
But the song called Heartbeat that is at the end credits of this is actually worse than the Don Johnson song.
Heartbeat.
Heartbeat.
Listen to my heartbeats.
Oh, heartbeat.
Heartbeat.
Oh, wow.
So I have talked about this movie that – and I can't remember if it was you I mentioned it to.
I mentioned it to someone where I was like, I'd love them to recut this with just score.
Don't use modern music.
Because they're using modern music in an era where modern music was not good.
1986 is not the peak in anyone's book for what music was or would become.
You can make some points for later in the 80s.
You can make some points for earlier.
You're just starting to figure out drum machines and the techno influence, but you're not running with it like a band like The Ministry or Nine Inch Nails later.
I find the music to be distracting at times.
I think the score is okay.
And I don't love the score.
It's just okay.
But the music, the songs, I can't pay attention to what's going on.
But it really culminated in the end of it.
The music is supposed to sound ominous.
And I think it does in 1986.
It's almost cartoony at this point.
That's fair.
To hear some of it.
Yeah.
I've had the luxury of, of course, watching Thief and then watching The Keep.
Yeah.
And you may or may not be aware of this, but if people are listening, have gone with me on this journey.
Those first two films were composed by a German techno band called Tangerine Dream.
Okay.
And they both sound very similar.
It's funny that you say this because this one is performed by a band called The Reds.
Yes.
Okay.
I did look that up.
Yes.
Okay.
But what I'm getting at is Tangerine.
The Keep was another box office failure for poor Michael Mann.
This was supposed to be his redemption movie that also bombed.
That's why the big break came.
The Reds, they said, hey, I noticed in your first two films, this is probably what Michael Mann wanted.
He didn't get Tangerine Dream for whatever reason.
They probably do like all the best with your films.
It's just not working.
Our music is not being heard by the people we thought, you know, whatever.
Who knows what the reasons were?
I'm sure Michael Mann would have used them again if it had Tangerine Dream said, sure.
So he got The Reds, which is another maybe T-Mu or Wish.com version of Tangerine Dream.
Right.
Because when the music kicked in, I was like, oh, this sounds like the same soundscape of The Keep and Thief that he did in his first two films.
So I'm like, did Tangerine Dream do three in a row with Michael Mann?
No.
I think Michael Mann just really liked this soundscape until he did Last of the Mohicans.
And I don't want to spoil Last of the Mohicans talk, but boy, he went from this, you know, what you're saying and what people might have been feeling about the first three soundtracks of his film.
He then gets a composer and it has one of the most incredible soundtracks ever created in a film with Last of the Mohicans.
It is just one of the most beautiful pieces of music I believe has ever existed in film.
Hot.
Not even a hot take.
This is a real.
This is obviously sort of the mindset that gives us that Miami Vice theme, that yawn and hammer or whatever, you know, that it just, I think, doesn't suit the story because the mood that he's trying to use, you know, there's a few other artists in this.
So there's a song called Strong As I Am by a band called The Prime Movers and Red Seven do that song Heartbeat.
And that song Heartbeat is just very painful to have lived through.
Who's the artist of the heartbeat?
You said?
It said they're called Red Seven.
So it's like, it's not.
It's not the Reds?
Yeah.
That's a different name.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they had an album out, I guess.
Oh, in 1987.
So this is even after this.
So they didn't even have their album out at this point.
Maybe this helped them get an album.
Maybe.
Yeah.
They had a single in 85, Heartbeat.
There you go.
I guess.
The music is what I always remember in my head.
And it's, I have definitely gotten pushback on that, that the, some feel that the music suits this film.
I just feel it doesn't.
Except for Inigata De Vida, which even at this point, that song's 20 years old.
So that helps.
You know what I mean?
It's a, it's a song from another era.
It's used really well in it.
But the other music, I find all of it distracting.
Okay.
Fair enough.
All right.
Thank you for reminding me about the soundtrack.
Oh, no, there was no way I was going to not talk about the soundtrack because it's my biggest problem with the movie.
It's like one A is not having the false ending and the surprise at the end.
Now, I haven't seen all of Michael Mann's films.
I mean, I hadn't seen The Keep or Thief before I started this journey.
And it's been a while since I've seen Manhunter.
So these first three films with that soundscape that Michael Mann is using, I didn't even know he really did that until re-watching these films and watching them for the first time.
Because like I said, the first film I saw of his was Last of the Mohicans.
I wonder with a couple films in his future that I haven't seen.
Like I haven't seen Black Hat yet, for example, which I know is sort of a computer sort of movie.
So I wonder if he's going to reinvestigate that again with some of these other themes.
But we'll find out.
I would recommend to anyone, as I've always done, watch this film.
Even if you're not a fan of Science Slams or you don't think you want to watch it.
It's not really that gory of a film.
There's some intense scenes, but it's some off-screen violence too.
This is a pretty non-gory film.
Science Slams is much more gorier.
And Hannibal and Hannibal Rising.
Honestly, even the TV series is shocking.
Oh, the TV series was much more.
I can't believe they got away with that stuff.
It was shocking that it aired on NBC.
Yeah, it was an NBC show.
I think there was a big warning for it though.
There was.
Yeah, and it would always air at 10 o'clock.
But still, at the same time, it's still fairly surprising.
It's not as violent or gory as people might expect.
One character I wanted to talk about that I forgot was Dr. Chilton, who works at the mental hospital.
Not played by the same actor as in Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal and everything.
Oh, who's that?
He sure seems like the same guy.
They nailed the type for Dr. Chilton, who monitors Hannibal and wants to sort of become something else.
He wants to get published or he wants to become famous off of his work with Hannibal Lecter.
And of course, at the end of Silence of the Lambs, we see Hannibal having followed him on vacation.
That's right.
Having dinner with an old friend.
Having dinner with an old friend.
Great.
They left that open for a sequel in a weird way, too, though, didn't they?
No, no, definitely.
And that's where Hannibal came from.
For better or for worse, the sequel that we got.
In general, you got to look at this movie in a bit of a vacuum.
It's good.
A little bit.
I didn't just say it as hyperbole.
It is my fourth favorite version of this story.
Some of the shot composition, I don't even know if we talked about this.
Just like the movie opens, William Peterson, Dennis Farina on the beach.
It's beautiful.
So much of it looks great.
It looks great.
The scene where they're trying to ambush, they hope that the Tooth Fairy tries to get him in the FBI parking lot.
All of that, with the shadows and all that.
The use of flashlights, which will be popularized a few years later on the X-Files.
There's a lot of stuff that's great.
And you're like, oh, yeah, Michael Mann is brilliant.
He just wrote this.
So his adaptation, he's to blame for not adapting the story as well as he could have.
And we should say this is now three for three of his films so far, where it's a book to an adaptation.
He has done a novel that he's written the screenplay for.
So he's very keen.
Doug and I talked about it for the keyboard, which was based on a novel.
We speculated that he must have been a fan of the book to say, I like this book and I want to make this book into a film.
Thus, I'm going to direct and write the screenplay for.
So I wonder if we were able to talk to Mann.
Like, did you just, was it a publicist or agent that gave you this book?
So this might make a good film?
Or was he already a fan?
This was a pet project.
I don't know if you didn't have any research on that.
No, I wish that I had.
There's like a massive director's cut DVD, not even Blu-ray set that came out in like 2000.
That's been out of print for a long time.
Looked into just acquiring because I would like to hear his commentary.
I don't really need to own it for a lot of the other stuff.
I would, I would watch all the deleted scenes.
Like the one we talked about.
I would like to know more about his thought process, his, you know, to use a word that usually sounds corny, but to use his journey with this story.
Did he read it and think about it for years or did somebody come to him?
Hey, you should make this into a movie.
Read this book.
You know, because the spoiler alert, his fourth film, Last of the Mohicans was based on the book by James Fenimore Cooper called Last of the Mohicans.
So he'll be four for four on the fourth film regarding screen adaptations from novels.
So he, that's his thing.
All right.
Clearly.
All right.
Well, it was an absolute pleasure having you on today.
Christian, truly.
It was a true joy talking to you and appreciate all your insights and background, your fandom too.
That that's amazing that this film worked out the way it did that nobody else picked it before you because it worked out perfectly.
Let people know again where they can find you.
Sure.
I do my own podcast and I have for a very long time called the black cast B L A D T C A S T.
It's a little bit of a mixed bag, but we do talk about movies a lot on there.
We do talk to people like Kaylee.
I had good Doug on from good times, great movies.
We talked about Robocop, which we both agree is a near perfect film.
Yeah.
And I was excited to talk to Doug about that.
And for people who know the universe that I populate, I have Adam Husey Hughes on a lot more often than I'd expect because he's not just a guy who does drive by on live streams and drops the C word and leaves.
He actually is very insightful when it comes to movies and he has quite the home cinema that he likes to brag about.
So you can find that over there.
And of course, I am one of the co-hosts of who are these broadcasters Tuesdays, 2 p.m. Eastern, 11 a.m. Pacific on the who are these podcasts YouTube channel.
And of course, it also exists as an audio podcast wherever you find those.
And I do believe that I'll at least be attending Hackamania in Las Vegas in May.
You can look for me there.
And I guess Carl would want me to say use promo code WATP to save 10%.
Maybe Kaylee would tell you something else.
And definitely our friend Cardiff Electric would tell you a different word.
But use promo code WATP.
You'll save 10% of that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Yeah.
I wish I could go to those events one day, maybe one day.
You're part of a great network, but your show are Who Are These Broadcasters?
I watch on YouTube every week.
It's always a pleasure.
You work very hard on that show.
I know what it's like to podcast and the clips you have to curate and the comments you have ready.
I think Zane might be the one who gets his benefit, just gets to wash some cold and you do the hard work.
Is that what I'm gathering when I watch?
That's mostly true.
Yeah.
We did recently do an episode where he, over the course of, well, because of the way that I took a vacation with my family, I was mentioning that I was in Tombstone.
We did like a week early, we did an episode.
So we didn't miss a week, but we didn't record together for like 12 days.
So he sent me like 10 videos during that time.
I'm like, this is so many.
And I was like, you're making up about 25% of our videos.
We usually try to show around 40 clips.
And I was like, this is the most you've ever done.
And he's like, yeah, I don't know what got into me.
Well, I'll be the first to admit how much work I put into it.
But he'll be the second to admit.
He always admits that I put a lot of time into it.
I just want the show to be good.
And that is a divisive opinion amongst some people.
Oh, no.
But I put a lot of effort into it.
And I enjoy doing the show.
We have fun.
And we have a little bit of a community there.
So I hope people would check out who are these broadcasters either on video or just as an audio podcast.
We do our best to explain the clips to people if they can't see them.
You do a good job.
I would admit I do the YouTube version while I'm doing dishes so I can sit there and watch as I'm washing and drying dishes and see the clips.
It is more fun to watch the clips, but I get it.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much for coming on.
And I hope to do this again with you in the future.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
And thanks to everybody for watching and listening.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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