The Director's Chair Network

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you want to play games okay have a play with him come
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on okay do you want to play with us okay say hello to my new friend
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hello and welcome back to the show and if you've listened previously you know last week we talked about Pacino and we
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covered a scene from Scarface and Carito's Way and this week it's my pleasure to bring back my friend and
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fellow podcaster Scott to talk another pivotal scene from Scarface scott welcome thank you thanks for having me
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back a twofer my second time yeah you were my first guest on this show and I you know I love podcasting with you so
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much when we had the opportunity to talk Scarface I said "This is perfect we can dovetail last week's discussion right
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into more Pacino get a lot of the scar uh the Pacino content out of the way and
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people that are Pacino fans will get their Pacino fix and then we'll move on so um yeah uh Scarface 1983 Deal's 14th
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film it came out in between um he had previously done Blowout so he was coming
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off of you know a critically acclaimed movie uh and then after this he made
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Body Double so you've got a a really good three film run
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i'm not sure what else or or what or or how to start with Scarface
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it's I think that there's probably a handful of films that you can mention
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that people would would know Brian Dealama from yes and Scarface is
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definitely one of those mhm what does Scarface sort of mean to you in terms of
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overall the overall film landscape so I'm going to say something that may
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or may not be uh uh politically correct for Depalma
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fans i believe this is his magnum opus now I will caveat that
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by saying as a Tarantino fan I think Pulp Fiction is his best film is it
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everyone's favorite film is it his best director film that's always up for debate but as far as the landmark the
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film that if you took away all films what's a one film that this a guy if you
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had to pick one film from each director that just signifies a time a place it's a cultural phenomenon
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scarface is that film for Brian Dealma now I know there'll be other people on here who will you know they'll say
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Blowout's his best film and look maybe director you know maybe directorial wise this and that but few films are able to
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have uh one of my guests called it the here's Johnny moment where you say a
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line and whether you've seen that film or not you know it's from you know the film right like you don't see it so
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we're going to need a bigger boat uh bring out the [ __ ] uh here's Johnny say
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hello to my little friend you know I mean it's such a phenomenon of a film
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that it literally is like ground zero for '90s
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rap for a lot of people like Scarface is the film that kind of makes gangster rap want to be gangster rap they want to be
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Scarface they don't want to be Godfather they don't care about the Godfather that's not that's not realistic to a lot
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of people where like Good Fellas later on seven years later would kind of be a similar uh touch point for you know for
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Scorsesei it's he was a bluecollar guy pacino is [ __ ] from the streets
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chewing up the street he's a piranha in a kids pool you know what I mean like he is chewing up the goddamn scenery in
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this but I love the Untouchables that was like my real first cuz like a Scarface came out 83 it came out 2 days
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before my 8th birthday so there's no way I'm seeing Scarface till the teenage
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years before I see Scarface so I'm not going to pretend I'm like I was on that train you know 1983 no I think my first
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real introduction to Brian De Palmer would have been 1987's Untouchables i
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mean that's one of those films it's like love that film it's like a warm bath you know what I mean i just love it that
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being said I I just think Scarface is that film that will forever be Brian De
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Palma's film and again like I said I'm sure many of your guests will debate which one his best is you may even not
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even think it's the best either and that's perfectly fine but when you But if you were to you know if you put
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everyone if you put the list up and John Q public had a look at it I would go with
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95% are going to pick Scarface they're going to that's the one they're going to pick and it's just and it's bizarre
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because if you do look at his filmography it is one of those like I don't want to say sore thumbs but it's one of those ones that just kind of like
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pops up and just kind of you go "Wait a minute he directed Scarface." You know what I mean i think a lot of people
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forget that he directed Scarface who aren't Dealma fans yeah and and that's
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the funniest thing about Brian Deama and the thing I thought was most interesting about doing this show because uh on
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Facebook the other night I posted about watching Wise Guys you know which is uh a mid80s comedy he did with Joe Piscapo
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and Danny DeVito and I think at least two or three people that commented on that post said "I had
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no idea that was the Palama." And that's the thing that I think really sort of makes me such a fan of him as a as a
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filmmaker but also led me to believe that there could be a really good podcast devoted to him because there are
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so many anomalies in his filmography where you know you know it's like uh
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even even Scarface to his next movie Body Double i mean and and I'm on a Body
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Double kick right now i mean not Body Double's on Netflix it's I think Netflix did this 40th you know 40th you know
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1984 40 years so they've put up a lot of films from 1984 beverly Hills Cop Body
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Double um all kinds of movies if you go to Netflix you'll see it so for the
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longest time Body Double wasn't on streaming when I first got the Criterion Channel a couple you know maybe a year
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ago it was on and then it disappeared so then the other day when I saw it was back on streaming I was like "Oh fuck."
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Yeah so I watched it and then I was like "Oh man i don't have the Blu-ray yet and I've been waiting for the 4K and then I
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was finally like ah 4K is probably not coming so um I ordered the Indicator region free release of of
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Body Double and like right now if you're if you're you know holding my a gun to my head I'm going to say the movie I
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want to watch is going to be Body Double but uh yeah no and and and that's the cool thing about directors in general
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Scott is like a good director like Deama or like you said Tarantino there's
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really no wrong answer i mean if you really if you really get down to the mat and start debating I'm sure you can come
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up with a a general consensus that can't be really argued but um I think most
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directors that are worth their salt are going to have multiple movies that people are going to say "Oh yeah that's their best." store um I think you kind
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of expressed it really well by saying it's sort of like his his hallmark film
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yeah i you know it's that one that everyone like grandma might know you know what I mean like the little kids might know like everyone will know like
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like you said there are going to be niche films scorsese has got some like that too but they'll you know like
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they're going to go oh it's Taxi Driver or like good films like no one's going to say the silence or something like but
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some people may love those films you know what I mean and he's got great ones but there are those ones that you just go like everyone knows them like they're
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just those movies that even images like even images of Scarface and I was
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reading up you know doing a little more research but what are we coming out like 30 oh 40 years 41 years since and you
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can still buy the poster and pictures from in shops now like I mean this is now
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gone on for almost as long as Star Wars it's like Star Wars it's got that kind of like iconography where like you just
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see him standing there with the gun or you see you know different shots you know it's him um I'm a huge Grand Theft
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Auto fan and one of the best Grand Theft Auto games you know when it really kicked it into high gear was Vice City
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you know uh came out early 2000s again a lot of that game is based on a lot of
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what happens you know a lot of the missions some of the story lines being told are based on of course this film
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and obviously as I said you know '90s '90s rap really embraced Scarface i mean
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it's a lot of raps you know rap uh big- time rappers favorite movie uh someone
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once said I think Snoop Dogg said he watched this every every week or every day or something like every month or
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something like that for like for a long time like he watched this all the time and it kind of like is like gives them that persona right like they watch it to
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look at Tony Montana see how he acts and then kind of get that verb and that [ __ ] machismo and like the big
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[ __ ] balls big dick energy origin like Tony Montana has big dick energy you know what I mean early on and it
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really became a persona and I think it really people gravitated to that which is odd because he's also in one of the
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other greatest crime dramas ever he's also from The Godfather and his two characters couldn't be more polar
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opposites if they tried yeah and uh in the previous episode I talked with Brian about Pacino in in general as an actor
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so I don't want to get too redundant there but I mean what Pacino brings to
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his collaborations with the Palama um really helps make make the films so what
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we're going to do uh well actually one other thing before we jump to the scene and and this scene kind of supports it though is this I think
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was a watershed moment for Depalma too because Blowout has you know some action
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quote unquote action sequences where you know you know car stuff going on and it
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it's more suspense but here I'd say it's like probably
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legitimately his first true action sequence and we're going to talk about
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the iconic and I'd say logical conclusion of Scarface i I mean I don't
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think there's any other end for Tony Montana than the one that we get in this movie
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you know the great things about the American crime stories is we see the rise and fall and what happens when you
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get you know uh too close to the sun it's like the Icarus moment right we got two you get too close to the sun wings
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melt off and you plummet hard and how this the neat thing about the ending and
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I'd forgotten how it kind of sets itself up because you know the ending how it's gonna you know we know that that Sosa's
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men are coming and he's basically basically taking on an army of drug cartel soldiers by himself and you know
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and a mountain of cocaine and a [ __ ] M16 with a 203 grenade launcher on it
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but the interesting part is the the Shakespearean kind of drama that happens
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before that I think a lot of people forget he's sent to kill this reporter who's
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going to detail report on these Bolivian drug runners and he's sent to kill him and they're going to blow up the car the
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guy's in great sequence by the way but there's two girl two little girls get in and his guy's wife and that was not a
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part of the plan and so as they're about to do it he ends up killing uh a guy who
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would later go on to probably even more fame in Breaking Bad which is interesting because uh one of
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the things that people have drawn a conclusion to is you know Tony shoots him cuz he was going to because he's the
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guy the button man he's going to blow up the car and at and in Breaking Bad he's the one who hits the button and blows up
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Gus you know so it's kind of like this interesting kind of turn for him like his whole cinematic by design 100% so
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Tony does like a very human thing he's like "I'm not I'm a piece of [ __ ] but I'm not that kind of piece of shit."
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Yeah i wasn't hired he's like a code yeah he's like a code like I'll kill people who are in the game like it's
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like And again you know this not like a shot at any police or anything but like when you're when you're in law
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enforcement and you're the criminals you know you carry weapons for a reason like
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you know that there's a good chance that life one day could end due to your line of work and a lot of times they try to
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keep those even those people in both worlds try not to have any collateral damage unlike war where they just you
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know people just it's part of the game so it's awesome to see Tony have like a moment of like oh my god a redeeming
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moment which is quickly followed up by like a very weird almost uh Freudian
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moment where he's gone home he's got to find his sister he can't find Manny Yeah shits hit the fan he knows that Sosa is
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going to be coming for him and you know shows up at the house and shoots Manny
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kills Manny and then finds out that he's just married his sister and then you know then by the time they get to the mansion they're starting to come over
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the wall and so it kind of goes bizarre and she walks in and she's accusing Tony wanting to [ __ ]
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her and you know it's such I mean so much happens you saw her her new husband get murdered yes postcoidous by that as
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well they're both in like the glow um and that is um Mary Elizabeth master and
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Tony yeah she's great in that so so yeah before we get to that encounter I think
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that I really wanted to start this scene it starts uh with Tony at his desk he
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has just gotten back to the mansion he's at his desk with the pound of cocaine and this is probably the most aal moment
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of this scene is we start on the video screens behind him yeah and we see the
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we see the invasion we see the the guys coming over the walls and it does this like slow tracking shot around the desk
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and around to Tony and then we see his two henchmen come in it's a total deama
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moment but the thing I really like about that Scott is it sets up the monitors
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and how important those are going to be because those are going to give Tony information later in the scene and it's
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going to cause us the viewer to decide do we watch Tony or do we watch the monitors just like we talked about in Snake Eyes
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right like what what are you going to watch yeah exactly what are you going to miss uhhuh it's interesting because his
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sister pulls a gun on him mhm i think she's she's at the point of no return i
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I don't think she was going to go home back to mom and and go back to her regular job i think she was probably
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going to be institutionalized regardless or depending on how this scene you know if she did walk out of
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this scene alive cuz yeah she seems like her brain has just snapped she actually
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successfully shoots Tony in the thigh and I'm really curious what Tony how
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Tony would have deescalated this had that guy not come in and shot her first
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of you got the the combination of cocaine i mean he is already high this is also a moment where we see Tony
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not as confident anymore he he did the right thing not blowing up
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the car but now he knows he's going to have to reap the to reap the whirlwind from it mhm so he's trying to be like
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"We're going to go to war but I think he knows I don't have enough." Yeah to go to war with this guy then he just
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realized that he made a huge mistake by shooting Manny who's his right-hand man
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because of his cuz jealousy or did you know doesn't think he's good enough for his sister he realizes he the only
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person who actually like who cared about him in the family was his sister so he's losing her so all these things are
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happening at once and he's sitting at that desk and he doesn't for like the first time in the film doesn't really
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know what to do and it's not until she's actually killed that he's actually able to do something so if that guy coming
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Yeah you know like if he and he hasn't even come to terms that she's dead cuz he tells her I'll be right back yeah
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yeah he's so he's all [ __ ] up you know I mean it's not just the cocaine that's [ __ ] him up it's his whole world is
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just crumbled at his feet in less than 24 hours you know he goes from we're going to flip a switch blow this up and
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you know the scene before that like this whole I mean the downfall starts at that dinner where basically Michelle Feifer's
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character Elvivara she basically leaves him and then he goes to I mean it's just then he goes to New York and that gets
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[ __ ] up and he comes home like it's just a [ __ ] constant you know it's just one landmine after the next yeah
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and I think us seeing the betrayal and it's the eyes it's just his way the way
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he emotes through his eyes when it when he's crazy when he's mad like when he looks at Manny 5 minutes before the
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scene starts and he's shot like the look in his eyes like you're like holy [ __ ] like you can feel the anger and the you
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know the and then once he's realized he's [ __ ] up with his his sister his eyes are kind he's kind of like glazed
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over almost kind of like in a in a haze in a fog you know even his men are coming in and I they
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don't do the Spanish interpretation which is great cuz they're outside but you can tell they're talk cuz he comes out in the veranda and you can tell
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they're talking about I think he's [ __ ] lost it like they even they're starting to question their loyalty to him now they think "Oh he's [ __ ] gone
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off the deep end." But unlucky for them they chose a little too late because it's like 2 seconds later Sosa's men are
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up over the wall and they're like knifing them and grouting them you know killing you know quietly killing them yeah and and finally finally snaps Tony
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out of it is one of his henchmen is right outside the door begging to let him in yeah one of his buddies and and
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he sees that guy get shot and that's when he kind of he gets back into the
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game if you will and he looks at the monitor and again he sees what's outside his door and that's when he gets the big
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guns like I even think there's a moment where he considers getting one of the guns that's already on the table and
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he's like "No I need the I need the big boy for this." And and that sets up the most one of the
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most iconic moments in cinema you know it just does you know He's standing
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there and it's so again this is this is just there are moments in in cinema that
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there's just a tip of a cap and you just kind of go you know it's like chef's kiss like it's it's the perfect actor
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it's the perfect moment it's the perfect delivery it's the perfect framing it's the perfect everything in that moment
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and he fires that 203 grenade round which nobody expected say hello to my little friend and he blows the doors
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open and like nobody on the other side of that door expected that they were expecting something but they weren't
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expecting to get blown up and you like you just like like I think
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it's the moment where like a lot of men then go that's how I want to go out you know what I mean you've got like this in this this romantic feeling of like
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you're a gladiator at this moment like if I'm going to go out I'm going out like this i'm [ __ ] taking a whole
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bunch of cockroachers with me you know what I mean it's this weird mental state yeah and I think we've got um the
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benefit of an accident to sort of you know help this scene become what it what
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it became i'm sure you know that using that big gun there was a take where Pacino grabbed the barrel while it was
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still hot yes burned his hand and he was actually on the bench for two weeks so
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Deama had this mansion and all these henchmen and just started shooting a
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shootout without Scarface and I'm sure I'm I'm not sure if you know this or not but even one day
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of the shooting Stephen Spielberg came by Depal's buddy Stephen Spielberg and he even directed a a couple shot so
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basically DAMA has said "We basically just we filmed as many ways as we could
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to shoot people." Yeah why not which must have been great because then when he gets to he gets Pacino back to shoot
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the other end of things he's got any option he needs i'm sure in the editing
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room they were able to just be like you know footage galore and I think that
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really benefited the scene i mean it wasn't planned that Pacino was going to hurt himself and be out of action for
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two weeks they were like hey now that just gives us ability to you know sort of
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shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and it's it's just
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it's just a you know a ballet of bullets you I mean people talk about John John
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shootouts and things like that but you know you got the two staircases leading
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up and Tony's at at the top at the top and you've got that globe that says the world is yours yep which is paying
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homage to the original 1930s Scarface which is about El Capone yeah it's Oh
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it's it's brilliant yeah there's again there's a lot of visual stuff going on you know going there and the other thing
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I really like about the sequence is we've got the guy that's kind of come
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in through the window yeah the skull I think his nickname is yeah and there's a shot that just frames Montana from
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behind in a doorway it's just such a perfectly framed shot and then we'll cut to the reverse and we'll see past Tony
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and see his his grim reaper coming up yeah but the thing I love about it Scott
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is at this point Tony has taken half a dozen shots i think that
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the total number to include his sister he shot 10 times on screen so nine from them and one from her yeah before the
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final Yeah you know shoots i mean this is where it gets into
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big cinema mode cuz he's responding like he's indestructible and how those
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bullets I mean in the real world he would have gotten shot nine times and he would have hit the ground but no
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probably or maybe Rick James is right cocaine's a hell of a drug but either way I just love that superhero moment
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that Tony has yeah mhm where he really seems indestructible until he gets shot
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close range by a shotgun right in the back um and we get that great reaction from Tony the FA you know and then the
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slow motion fall into the water and then the dude walks down the stairs and we
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get it's such a great craning shot it's like all this chaos and all of this like
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bravado is silenced and you realize that sometimes you aren't as big as you think
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you are and that's and that's kind of like this really it's always that like um people always say you know just just
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because you think you're the greatest there's always somebody coming up who's bigger and better than you kind of thing it's that kind of like you're king of
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the mountain for so long and then all of a sudden your day is over and you don't realize it and then someone removes you
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out of the equation and with all this explosion there's gunshot and I mean and Chino is just the perfect guy in this
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moment to be playing Tony and he goes over and as he goes into the water and we crane down even the music starts to
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get subdued the men are almost like all right we're done next you know like all right there's another ant that we have
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crushed who thought they were going to rise up and now we're going to go back to SOA and it's kind of Like even the
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skull was kind of like this is how it was always going to end and it's funny cuz Frank does warn him early in the
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movie if you mess like early says if you know you [ __ ] up with so he's going to send an army after you yeah yeah and he
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wasn't [ __ ] lying you know what I mean like it really happened and it's just it was a really really poetic
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ending that you you kill off this beloved character that we've grown to fall in love with even though he's a
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terrible hum terrible person but we kind of see ourselves in because it's a person who pulled themselves up from
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nothing and became something because they believed in themselves probably probably not the story you tell your
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children at night like you want to be like Scarface right they want to be Tony Montana but the way the Palm is able to
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close that film out and again probably a lot of people don't analyze like we do
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you know they probably have a life like hey it was a great movie and they go off they do something else where we sit there and take notes like wait a minute
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wait here's what he's trying to say but when you kind of watch that craning shot down you know they go up and it's up
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above and you can see it and I mean even the guy just killed him it's it's like just another day at the officer too he's
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not you know in some movies it's a celebration they're talking [ __ ] he just shoots him doesn't say a word that's his
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job and they go about and then they're just kind of like the house is on fire and things and they're like "All right time to go." It's you know it's really
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almost like a workman's mental like "All right we did our job and now we're out." And all of this fuss for one guy who was
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easily dispatched you know it just it's it just it was a great power move because when you watch The Godfather and
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stuff like that that doesn't happen because they are the ultimate right like even no matter what happens they always find a way to kind of get their revenge
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there's always that great moment where we get Copa showing us like three to four different things going on at one time and like we keep cutting between
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them and you know while you know Michael's off at some event other people are out killing the people who are his
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enemies who [ __ ] it pissed him off throughout the entire movie and but in this one it was kind of like almost this
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very more realistic feel of like when you're not at that level when you're not the coronas this is what happens to you
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when you try to get bigger than your station and I mean hey don't get me wrong though uh Tony Montana goes down
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like a champ right like he no one can say he went down like a [ __ ] they say that you know it's better to go out on your feet than live on your knees and he
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went out on his [ __ ] feet so yeah no absolutely and one thing you sort of mentioned the music fading out and I
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think it we'd be doing the uh the sequence a disservice if we didn't talk a little bit at least about how great
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the music in this movie is and we've got the legendary uh Georgia Georgio uh
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Maroter uh hopefully I said his name correctly who's just got this really just inspired inspired score
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perfect score for the film perfect score for the end of the movie but again to get to that end shot I love the way
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Deama ends his movies because a lot of times um this movie we you know we get
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that beautiful crane shot and then it fades out and then we'll get other times
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like the end of Snake Eyes where we just see the construction Yeah of the the new convention hall going on y uh and also
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the end of Body Double the whole credits are them shooting a scene with a body
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double well Untouchables does the same thing as this does yeah we crane up as Elliot Ness walks away we crane up into
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Chicago and so it's just kind of like this overview yeah in terms of the Palama sort of end shots yeah this is
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definitely um one of my favorites i almost would have really liked if they didn't fade to black as soon and we just
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saw Yeah the aftermath you know just all the bodies uh you know the the you know
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the water getting redder and redder from from all the blood and stuff but um yeah
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a a remarkable sequence i think it it it uh like you said it it it brought Dama
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to a different level it wasn't a a critical or commercial success at the time but I I still think it it impacted
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his career in a in a positive way well it's a lot like I mean if we think about the early 80s you've got The Thing
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you've got Bladeunner you've got Scarface they were not big hits but yet they're three of the greatest movies to
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ever come They all came out around the same time and it's kind of like again uh
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you know just audiences just don't sometimes sometimes a movie is ahead of its time are ahead of their time yes
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exactly yeah and then then they become they become these cinematic darlings years down the road and there are films
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that can't even keep up with some of these films like they're they're trying we have better technology and they still cannot you know do what you know and
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again they're three amazing directors who are starting in their prime of their careers at that time you know you got Ridley Scott we got John Carpenter and
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then of course we're going Brian De Palma so these guys are just you know they're [ __ ] hitting home runs and we're and everyone else is trying to
27:43
catch up yeah it's everyone else is still playing checkers and these guys were playing chess with us and they're like "Well I mean I think um the movie
27:50
that beat this on opening weekend was some half rate movie from Clint Eastwood you know it's like but but yeah Clint
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Eastwood is you know look he's probably a marketable guy at the time and people are going to go see this but no one g I
28:04
mean that movie no one gives a [ __ ] about like I'll be honest with No one's doing a podcast on that movie and here we are talking about Scarface 40 years later and it's one of those movies
28:11
you're like that's a you know it reminds me of Clarence when he's talking to when
28:16
they're at in True Romance and he's talking about the movies and he goes that's a [ __ ] movie like those are [ __ ] movies right those are [ __ ]
28:21
movies not you know whatever it was I forget what Clint Eastman put out but yeah well it's funny too and I know uh
28:28
we're running out of time here uh but it's it's funny I mean this was produced by by Martin Bregman and you wonder like
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at what point Mark Martin Bregman thought this was going to be a huge hit because it's an R-rated movie it's over
28:42
two and a half hours long yep i mean it got two X ratings the first two times it
28:48
went to the NBAA i mean sometimes you're like "Thank God somebody thought enough to to finance this film." Uh because you
28:56
know like the thing as well you know it's this dark sci-fi movie you know coming out the same summer as ET yeah
29:02
it's wild uh so thankful for the people that had the foresight to make a movie and I'm sure Universal has made their
29:08
money back you know 10 times over with how many times they've released this uh Scarface on home video and put out uh I
29:16
think the uh the DVD version I have is the platinum edition the 4K is the gold edition
29:22
so uh Scott thank you for talking Scarface with me thank you for having me on again i'm sure we'll we'll talk again
29:28
uh another one of Deama's films and for those that don't remember from the first episode just give people uh a quick
29:36
rundown of uh what they can expect if they listen to one of your podcasts so if you listen to the church right now
29:42
we're talking nothing but pulp fiction as it reaches 30 uh that's how I met Mr
29:47
craig Cohen as he was doing his old Pulp Fiction one i also do a dropping of Bruce with my buddy Steve Smith where we
29:54
talk about the 40 films that Bruce Willis has dropped on the VOD market and then our main stay yeah it's it's a it's
30:02
it's definitely I'm doing the Lord's work for sure on this one and then we also do uh our other Cheeky Bastard show
30:08
called Men of Action and that is putting two films against one another two action
30:13
films and so uh yeah we've having a great time doing that as well we're about to do a Stallone we're about to put Cobra i don't know when this will be
30:20
out but in May May no sorry in June or maybe July i July Cobra goes up against
30:27
Rambo 4 oh so oh yeah two yeah two great films against one another so two salone
30:33
stalwarts yeah nice and uh I'll include um the link in the show notes where people can find uh find all your podcast
30:40
and Scott uh thank you again thank you sir for having me on i know we're going to talk again soon absolutely take care
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