The Director's Chair Network

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the story of a sound the man who created it the girl who sang it the monster who
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stole it and the phantom who haunts the paradise the ultimate rock palace 20th
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Century Fox presents Phantom of the Paradise a gothic horror story
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hello and welcome back to The Goat a Brian De Palma fan podcast and once
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again I am joined by my friend David david welcome greetings how are you good thanks hey so before we went on just
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some transparency u we don't record these episodes you know the day before
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they go live or anything uh we're recording this a couple of days previously and a couple hours ago we
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learned about uh the passing of David Lynch and I think we both think that
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when talking about on a movie podcast it would be you know hard not to mention it
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before we get started yeah and in fact it was something interesting that I thought of i don't think he has any real
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connection to Brian De Palma at all but a long time ago when I interviewed Brian DeAlma for creative screenwriting he
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mentioned about how he had a style that was able to go in and out of the mainstream and funny enough so did David
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Lynch as well to some extent now I don't think he ever could have done something like Mission Impossible but if he did
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that would have been interesting but he had an interesting thing too where he could do something like The Elephant Man
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and then you know do his own idiosyncratic work for lack of a better term and you know he could still be
Phantom of the Paradise Overview
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successful on his own terms making his own films as well that was one thing I thought of today when um when he uh
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passed away which which is terrible i I know that he'd been ill for a while but
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yeah from what I remember yeah but I also know he was just determined to do
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whatever it took to make his next film even if he had to direct it um remotely yeah that's he was talking about that so
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yeah you know it's funny i always talk about on this show how Dealama was able
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to operate in different genres and then if you think about it you have uh even if we're just looking at his mainstream
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films you have like Dune which was like this big sci-fi epic which was capitaliz
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like Dino Durantis you know trying to capitalize on Star Wars years later um but then also he could make a grounded
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film like The Straight Story which I I remember when The Straight Story came out I was like "Wow a G-rated David
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Lynch movie this I have to go see." and and it was a a great touching tender work yeah yeah yeah and also um from
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what everyone had said supposedly he was like the nicest guy in the world to work with it was such an interesting
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dichotomy considering how um how dark and you know and visceral a lot of his
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work is but everyone said supposedly he was like one of the nicest most chill people you could ever um even Nicholas
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Cage said when he did uh Wild at Heart he said that was the most fun I ever had making a movie yeah well I I also think
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the the you know the sort of connection we can make artistically between uh Deal Palma and Lynch would definitely be they
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both were acutely aware of the fact that they were making movies in the sense
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that I mean logic took a backseat to the artistic expression right yeah and it's
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an interesting thing too because for me also um you know to to me David Lynch
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really was a real artist i mean I don't think he was like a guy who was necessarily being weird for the sake of
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being weird if you really look at his work and also you know paintings and stuff that I remember seeing in the
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documentary about him and stuff he I mean he there was a real artist at work it wasn't somebody who was intentionally
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trying to be provocative or you know again being weird for the sake of being weird i mean no it was who he was yeah
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he he definitely followed his own drum and you know there's no other filmmaker
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that can make movies like that i mean he's he's a probably as uncopyable as
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you can get yeah so yeah no just you know sort of mourning the artistic loss
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aside from the the personal loss i mean I I didn't know him he was a fellow human being but aside from that
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definitely mourning the artistic loss because uh he brought a lot to the table in terms of the art of film making and
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helping it progress to what it is today but what we're talking about today David is I'm so excited to revisit this movie
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cuz it's one of my favorites in the uh Deama catalog and that's 1974's The
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Phantom of the Paradise now we're also both big heavy music guys was that kind
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of your the initial appeal of this movie when you you know first discovered it
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and responded to it i I don't think so on that one and I can't remember the exact moment in time when I saw it i
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think my interest was first peaked in it with uh and peaked with a Q not with a K
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but peaked i'm not sure if I use that correctly or not but um was reading about it in Danny Perry's cult movies i
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think it's in the second volume or or was it the first i can't remember but seeing the image of the Phantom with
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that weird helmet and and all of that stuff kind of piqued my interest in that and this is when I hadn't I probably
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hadn't become like a full-blown Depalma fan yet but I was certainly aware of who he was and uh you know becoming a heavy
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metal fan you know and then seeing Phantom of the Paradise many years later and and again I can't pinpoint exactly
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when I saw it but you know I I'm pretty sure I'd seen Spinal Tap before that and
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you know it's it was kind of like a Spinal Tap before Spinal Tap and also um
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you know a little bit of Rocky Horror before Rocky Horror Picture Show you know like we were talking about David Linton's work his stuff is always going
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to be ahead of its time and this was a movie that was very ahead of its time and I think that's why people are now
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catching up to the Phantom and rediscover it seems like every 20 years I meet people or hear about people who
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are discovering it for the first time and it's like wow where's this been all my life this is a great especially like
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uh people in the music business or people who are in bands and you know or people that want to be songwriters and
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are just discovering the work of Paul Williams for the first time and things like that so that that was kind of what
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it was for me it didn't hit the nail on the head for me as much as like Spinal Tap did where it came out like right as
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heavy metal was exploding again and it was like so on the money about what was going on right then and actually Phantom
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of the Paradise was to some degree as well because I think when they were making it in 73
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I think that's when the like rock and roll had all had suddenly become like a
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billion dollar industry or something like that and bands were headlining stadiums and everything was getting so
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big and so over the top and Brian De Palmer really capitalized on that about
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how you know these bands are so big and everything had gotten so big and the stage shows were getting so over the top
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and the audiences like he said I think it was in Cinn Fantastic magazine I can't remember the interview but he said
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the audience loves that to watch these bands like you know blow themselves up
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on stage and they they can't get enough and they want more and more and more I mean he really understood the whole thing about how people were you
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attracted to like the the over-the-top bombastic part of it you know oh no absolutely and it's definitely occurring
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in an era where we were getting into that very theatrical sort of shock rock
Theatrical Shock Rock & Glam Era
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you know subgenre or whatever and you know you could say Alice Cooper and Kiss sort of played in that sandbox and then
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even like David Bowie with the Ziggy Stardust persona you know so rock was
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becoming very theatrical and one of the things I I love about Phantom of the Paradise is just uh it's just such a
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bold statement and I think it's really
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the Palama's first big looking film
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yeah yeah it's it's an interesting thing too because I realized you know with the with the scene with that band The Undead
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where they had the full face makeup one thing I noticed watching it again is the background and I think that's uh from
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the cabinet of Dr caligari if I'm not mistaken seems like it yeah the backdrop
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so maybe that's why the face paint is in black and white but if they were shooting it in 73
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um that that was right before Kiss you know came into the national stage cuz their first album came out in 74
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with that and it's also the um I mean Alice Cooper was around at that time and was making a name for himself and so was
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David Bowie and uh the Palma I think it was like he was looking at like the glam glitter period and just how over the top
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and how it it had a lot of camp in it as well as we saw with Queen and you know
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it also you know I I think it also got the joke about itself which uh the later
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heavy metal bands that Spinal Tap were making fun of didn't oh no yeah absolutely i think another great
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decision with Phantom of the Paradise was Paul Williams i I think I talked about
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on our previous Phantom episode i think I said that
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I don't really think that Dealama could have made this movie without Paul Williams and if he did it would have
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been much different because in addition to you know the role of Swan that Paul
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Williams sort of presents and he's such a unique looking guy but then you also
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get the songwriting and it's cohesive songwriting but the other thing is and a lot of times in music movies when you're
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writing music for the movie is you're
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not always getting the best songwriter to write these songs that are supposed to be great yeah he may have been also like a like a
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left of center or out of the box kind of choice because um you you weren't
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getting like a typical hard rock or heavy metal songwriter wasn't like they hired David Bowie to do something like a
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Spiders from Mars kind of music it was somebody who uh you know back in the 70s
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got a bad rap because of you know he was doing a lot of stuff that was considered easy listening and stuff and it it's
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remarkable how he's had a whole resurgence as a songwriter and people are realizing now what a truly great
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songwriter he is well yeah and well it it's because if you think about it like once you strip away the the genre
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constraints and break a song down fundamentally to what it is
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that's when you can really either you know dismiss or embrace a song i mean and certain songs are just undeniable in
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their construction and I think Paul Williams songwriting style is just so
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exact and so precise and so good and I think like even a song like if you look at the hell of it from the Phantom
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soundtrack I mean that's a really sort of it's a heavy song but at the same time I think he's doing things that
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nobody else making heavy music at the time would have thought to do yeah it's it's more melodic and it's got you know
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some interesting changes in it as well it it sounds like I'm not the greatest musiccologist or anything but like um
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there's the part in the song it almost sounds like it's going from minor to major and it's a little more light-hearted from like the the the like
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the heavier verses and things like that so um yeah i don't know i mean it's um I
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mean good songwriting is good songwriting and it's funny too cuz like he did the Jim Henson special with um
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you know the Emtt Otter Jug Band and they had like that band The Nightmare where he had like a heavy song in that
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and I think he had once said something to the effect of you know even Jim Henson wanted to be naughty and do something like that you know yeah so the
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the the sequence from the movie that we're really going to sort of focus on you mentioned is the scene with the undead um with this uh the basically the
“Undead” Scene Breakdown
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song where they're they're putting beef together Someone Super Like You and the the cool thing about this is you know we
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had a a bunch of performers that were doing double duty during this movie the
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main singer for The Undead is Harold Oblong that stage name his real name was
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uh Peter Eling and then we've also got uh Jeffrey Commoner who was a musician
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and then Archie Han who was a very well-known character actor if you look at his if you if you see him out of the
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makeup uh for me David before I let you sort of talk to the song the the aspect
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of this scene that I really really love is especially the first time I watched the
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movie is like you you almost lose sight of the fact that you're watching a sort
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of a performance within a performance where meaning I got so sucked up in the movie that when they even as phony as it
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looks when they cut off the hand for a minute I was like wait did they just cut off that lady's hands right yeah
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and uh I I just think overall in addition to the the musical performance and it's great that Phantom gives us
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complete musical performances it's a complete song that also helps
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propel the story along and also gives us a little bit of sort
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of like I said a story within a story and the the construction of beef is is
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is very very cinematic and I just love the way Depalama put that whole sequence
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together i don't know if there was anything in particular you wanted to drill down on in terms of like what you
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really love about that sequence probably just how I think he understood how a lot
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of bands at that time were using theatrics and saw the power of it and you know a lot of heavy metal guys are
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big horror film fans too so you know I that's kind of something that struck me
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with that and just like how you call a band something uh you know like typical like the undead or something like that I
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thought was kind of funny there there hasn't been a band called that maybe Oh no wait i guess that was a punk band called that yeah I the guy from the
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Misfits I think who had Bobby Steel and the Undead or something like that
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but yeah I mean that was and also again when I noticed that the cabin of Dr caligari thing and then how um how beef
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is created like a Frankenstein monster and I go "Wow." I mean the it looked like Rocky Horror P it's it's very much
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like same thing in Rocky Horror Picture Show it looked very similar and then I realized it's also the same studio too
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20th Century Fox and that was also how they were kind of I wouldn't say like capitalizing but but Rocky Horror grew
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out of the whole glam glitter period which I think had ended in 74 or
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something like that but it still came out later and then it it's one of those things you can see both movies and
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knowing nothing about the whole glamor glitter history or whatever and still enjoy it regardless but again I mean I
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think that that segment was also about how you know like it's it's almost like um I
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don't know if the Palma made the the um comparison to like the Roman gladiator days where people like to go see
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bloodshed in a in a stadium but there there might have been some again he talked about how rock fans love to see
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bands destroy themselves on stage and blow themselves up and you know and they they wanted just bigger and more and
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more and more and it was becoming this whole era where it was getting bigger and more and more and getting you know
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everything had to be bigger the stadiums the venues you know who was sleeping with more groupies who was doing more
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drugs and that continued well into the 80s as well but I think he kind of realized that maybe earlier before a lot
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of or maybe as an outsider cuz I don't know if he's really a rock and roll kind of guy although he's he's done some
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interesting stuff with music over the years i mean yeah he directed the Dancing in the Dark video yeah yeah and
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also the whole thing that was another big WTF for me when um Body Double was
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playing on cable and seeing parts of that out of context i'm going what wait what's Frankie Goes to Hollywood doing
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yeah you get like a music video dropped right into the middle of that movie as well yeah and that was really weird and
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I'm like what what's going on with it's like what are they doing in this movie and like how did it's like I think what
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he said was like they wanted to I can't remember what it was but his idea was like why don't we put the video in the
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movie and it's interesting how the movie all of a sudden transforms into a music video in a way and it's like that's an
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interesting idea i never thought of but if when you see that out of context you're like what what the hell's going
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on what is this yeah i know when when when you when you were on our our
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previous episode you talked about body double and the um the drill scene being
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uh a little a little bit too much for you but uh I still think that in terms
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of I think movies that are pure dama you know I think body double's definitely on
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that list coupled with you know Dress to Kill Blowout and even Phantom of the
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Paradise and it's funny that I I think you you know you talked about sort of the cult status of Phantom of the
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Paradise but it it I think it's probably like if people are aware of that movie I
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think they're not aware of the fact that it's a the Palama film i think once we
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get away from his early comedies which you know aren't really that well known at all except for the the Dairo
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connection but I think in terms of like movies that have an audience it's I
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think the people that are watching Phantom of the Paradise aren't watching it because it's a DAMA film and I I
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think it's probably Dama's most unsung film um well it is getting its due now it
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might it might it might have been his unsung film for a while but um I I think
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it is starting to get its due and and again one of the reasons why people are finally catching up to it is you know
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again it was ahead a lot of his films were ahead of its time i mean as we all know I mean Scarface didn't do well when
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it first came out now it's huge classic and then um you know the 20th
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anniversary of Carrie came along and they did a big story about that and premiere and it was I think right after
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Coline had just happened so then it was kind of like that was kind of one of the angles of the of the story was about how
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it kind of echoed that or kind of predated that in a way or something like that to some to to some degree i didn't
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make the connection myself but you know again that was a movie that did well when it came out but I think as long as
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there's going to be disenfranchised teenagers that's a movie that people are going to see and go wow you know like
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look at how much hasn't really changed you know no absolutely and and I think the thing is but I I I think maybe my
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main my main idea was how many people are watching and loving Phantom of the Paradise and then saying "Oh I have to
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go watch X movie from Dama now." I'm just I'm just wondering if it's one of those films that generates
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Dama fans or it just generates cult movie fans i think it's starting to for
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cult movie fans and and also music people too because again the singer from
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The Darkness Justin Hawkins he did a whole um uh thing on his channel about
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how he had just discovered the film and how much he loved it and he was doing little pieces of the songs and I knew a
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kid in my neighborhood who just was playing guitar and wanted to be in a band and he had seen it on cable
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probably by accident and loved it and and like to him Paul Williams was a
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whole was like a whole new guy and it's like well that guy's been writing music since before we were born you know i
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mean he's not like a new guy he's been around for it's kind of like uh that was the joke Cheap Trick used to make like
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in between songs Rick Nielsson would say "Hi we're Chief Trick we're a new band." You know yeah
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so we focused a little bit on the the sequence from from the movie but do you overall want to just give any feelings
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about Phantom of the Paradise that you you haven't been able to share yet well one thing I thought was interesting was
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years ago I talked to Jay Hawk who knew Brian Dealma very well and I believe
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they're still in in touch you know Jay um was the film critic for Time magazine
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and he um him and Martin Scaresi go way back so he's he even knew George Lucas
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you know before Star Wars and all that cuz he was married to Vera Bloom who knew um Marshall Lucas from Medium Cool
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okay and all this stuff so when I interviewed him a long time ago we weren't just talking about Gangs of New
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York which was coming up but about some filmmakers he knew and things like that
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and he had mentioned about how Phantom of the Paradise is actually somewhat of an autobiographical film for Brian
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Dealma because it was about him trying to work within the system getting crushed by it because he had a really
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bad experience doing uh get to know your rabbit at Warner Brothers and that's an
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interesting thing long time ago I talked to Fred Winrob who was the produc a producer at Warner Brothers he produced
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Enter the Dragon but he had mentioned to me you know all those guys at Warner Brothers I got them their deals
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including uh the the THX deal with um
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with Copala and Lucas that went down the toilet brian De Palma had a deal there martin Scaresi had a deal there and none
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of them really broke out of Warner Brothers with their deals i mean maybe says he was the most successful that he
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had mean streets and um Alice doesn't live here anymore but the Palama was
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part of that group and it didn't go well and so from what I understood it's like
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Phantom of the Paradise was a bit like him dramatizing this this artist who
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gets crushed by a big machine and then he becomes like u you know um like this
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guy I I'm not sure exactly how to describe it or whatever i don't know if he was trying to be like a monster
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behind the scenes or anything like that but you know he always had his mischievous side or whatever but again it was somebody who was kind of crushed
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by the system and was trying to get back at it in a way which was an angle I had never considered before yeah uh I really
Paul Williams’ Songwriting Impact
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really really love this movie again in terms of Deal Palma movies I think it's
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one of his most vibrant it's a great movie to watch and it's a great movie to listen to and I I really hope people
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listening to this that are Dama fans that focus on particular periods of
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Dama's career if you've overlooked this this film please check it out because I think it's
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an important part of his filmography and I think it helps really define him as an artist yeah and he's and also um you
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know if you just love great music and miss great music yeah like in the 70s
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when so much good music was coming out and rock and roll was really exploding and becoming you know there were so many
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great bands in those days and you know it it came out early you know when there was so much stuff like you know the
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Rolling Stones were were huge and Led Zeppelin were playing stadiums and so
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much so many great bands and so many bands that you know had their own style and did their own thing and you know
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there were a lot of rock bands even heavy metal bands that you know they may
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have been that genre but they all didn't sound exactly alike everybody had their own thing you know Blue Oster Cold
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didn't sound like Zeppelin zeppelin doesn't sound like Black Sabbath you know that kind of thing so I mean it
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kind of hearkens back to an interesting era when you know a lot of things were changing
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in rock and roll and in the business and maybe not necessarily for the better but
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you know at the time it seemed like and that's a funny thing too cuz um
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I also think about that time when there were a lot of big stadium tours that were going around like Alice Cooper did a big stadium tour Crosby Stills Nash
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Young did a big stadium tour because one thing that was mentioned in Almost Famous That is absolutely true is a lot
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of people thought rock and roll was going to be done around point so Alice
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Cooper his plan was let's do a huge tour let's make as much money as we can and get out and retire and say they were
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still as nash and young but but that's absolutely true that a lot of people thought this was all on the verge of
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collapsing like it eventually did but it took a while but it did and everyone's like let's make as much money as we can
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and get the hell out of dodge so it kind of encapsulates that a little bit on a PG level but but I think it kind of
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encapsulates that a little bit as well too when you think about it no absolutely again it's a movie I just I
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just adore and it's it's one of my favorite movies so we're we're talking
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about uh music and you've actually um written uh movie and music books do you
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want to talk a little bit about your books and then I think there's also a recent project you've been involved with if you'd like to talk about that um well
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a recent project I've been trying to get off the ground but you know it's it's uh
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good i mean what's going on with the music business and Hollywood going on with the book industry too and it's like
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uh that's that's a whole other rigma roll in and of itself but yeah there was an article you sent over to me on I'm
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trying to remember i I don't the Eddie Van Halen um the amplifier well that was that's an older thing that that happened
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to resurface at the same time that's an article I wrote a long time ago about um
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people who um used to modify amps for rock stars because it was hard to get
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good sounding marshals that sounded full-blown in those days and there were people that would like hot rod marshals
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like you would hot rod a car and Eddie Van Halen had a guy and um a lot of the
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amp companies the boutique amp companies grew out of that yeah yeah well I know
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you had sent me a link to that so I'll make sure to forward that along and then do you want to talk about you did a a
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heavy metal book and then also a horror movie book yes yes um I think we talked about Real Terror before that's my
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horror film book which came out uh through St martins's Press i believe the date was 20 thou 2012 and a book I wrote
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called Bang Your Head that was not the title I picked but that's the title I I got um that came out in 2002 and I was
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trying to do like an Easy Riders Raging Bulls about heavy metal bands and I
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tried to cover like from the 70s going into the 90s and you know it begins with
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Black Sabbath who in my opinion are the first proper heavy metal band there's some debate that but But it covers a lot
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of the stuff not in the craziest details and everything and that was one thing that I had kind of missed a little bit
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was how again 1973 was such a pivotal year but I think 77 was a big pivotal
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year that that I do cover in the book about kisses a band that's throughout the book and um you know you had this
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crazy visionary like Neil Bogart who pushed them to the top and you know the record label you know had all you know
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it was so crazy back then you know and people were doing drugs in the office and music was blasting out of PA
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speakers and this was like when disco was the biggest thing since sliced bread and then the whole business almost
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collapsed at the end of the decade but Kiss were a part of that i mean wasn't
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just the music and the musicians i mean everything was so over the top like that you know with the
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hype as well yeah yeah there's a real PT BDM kind of
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thing with that and I and I think with Phantom of the Paradise that's something that the Palma definitely noticed and
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latched on to even before it got even crazier but it also um Phantom of the
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Paradise isn't mentioned in the heavy metal book but there is a a a fairly good chunk in the book about Spinal Tap
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and how that really nailed a lot of things on the head i I still am of the
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opinion to this day that it's I I think it's the most accurate movie that's ever been made about heavy metal and the most
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accurate movie that's ever been made about rock and roll it's if anything it's too close because
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if you talk to a lot of musicians and a lot of bands especially a lot of like big metal and hard rock bands they'll
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tell you the first time they saw that movie they didn't laugh yeah because it felt like they were looking in a mirror
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it was too close it was It was It really hit the nail on the head in fact like you mentioned Eddie Van Halen i remember
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he said in an interview um when he saw it and and he loved the movie but the first time he saw it he was in the
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theater and he was looking around going "What's so funny about that we couldn't find the stage either." It's like I I
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had like radio signals coming in my wireless what's so funny about that i wouldn't do that you know he wasn't and
29:13
and there were some bands that really did not take Spinal Tap well at all i mean Steven Tyler tells the story about
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how um the Aerosmith album at the time was Rocking a Hard Place and the cover was Stonehenge
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so he's in the theater and Aerosmith's done and he's probably down to his last 20 bucks everything's falling apart on
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him here's this band with with this Stonehenge set and he said he sunk so low in his seat he couldn't believe it
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he was just like he he said "I took that movie real personal." And and it's funny too cuz one thing I had also forgotten
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um he was a big priadonna about the deli tray and that's in the Spinal Tap movie too oh with the bread that you have to
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keep folding yeah yeah it's like Turkey had to be off a roll for Steven Tyler or
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you know he was threatened there with no gig and you know whatever and you know so I'm sure that that was like you know
30:05
again a lot of bands um and a lot of them love it but it took a while and you know Jeff Beck was a big fan and you
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know Nigel Tuffel's based on him you know so he he enjoyed it so yeah so I'll
30:17
definitely include a link to your to your two those two books and also uh
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that the resurfaced article and I'll also include any other things uh in the
30:28
show notes that you you might want me to share with the audience uh but David I'm so glad we were able to sit down once
30:35
again and talk to Palma and talk Phantom of the Paradise and I look forward to
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bringing you on the show many more times oh cool i would love I'd love to be on many more times
30:47
all right excellent again like for everyone who loves horror and metal you know a lot of us like horror and metal
30:54
and so for anyone who hasn't read Bang Your Head or Real Terror and if you want to read them both together I think
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you'll dig it and find it a really interesting journey into horror and you know and the glory days of metal and
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good bad or indifferent you know how it impacted so many of us you know cuz I
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mean how many metal heads are also here like you look at Kirk Hammet and his huge horror collection all that stuff
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and you know that that's something that brings us all together I think or like
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uh you know the death metal band Mortician i remember the lead singer said he had 600 horror films in his
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collection he said "This is great i'll never run out of ideas to write about." Right on and like I said I'll include
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links to those books and David we'll talk again soon sounds good man thank you very much