The Director's Chair Network

Brian De Palma. Brian De Palma's a Brian De Palma film.
Hello and welcome back to The Goat. In this episode, I am thrilled to once again talk Carlito's Way.
As listeners know, I'm a big Carlito's Way fan. I consider it one of the best films of the 90s,
if not the best film of the 90s. But without further ado, I'm going to bring on my guest,
friend and fellow podcaster, Pat. Pat, welcome.
Hey, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. It's been a while since we last talked.
It was at Jackrabbit Slims.
Yeah, you were an early guest on my Quentin Tarantino Pulp Fiction podcast,
Conversations at Jackrabbit Slims. And if I remember correctly, it was your first English podcast.
It was. You're right. You are so right. Yes.
Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about your podcasting at the end of the episode,
but I'm ready to sort of jump in and get into Carlito's Way because I love talking that film.
But before we do, if you could sort of set the table in terms of where you're at with De Palma,
if you want to get into sort of what your entry point was, if you're just a Carlito's Way guy,
or how your De Palma experience works.
Okay, so we might have talked about that on Conversations at Jackrabbit Slims, but I'm mainly a Tarantino guy, obviously.
So Tarantino is really the guy that I follow. I'm a completist. I have everything. I've seen everything, etc., etc.
And De Palma, like, I'm looking at his filmography, and I've seen a lot of them, and I like a lot of them.
But it was never directed to where I was like, oh, the new De Palma is out, you know?
It wasn't like that for me. I didn't even realize Carlito's Way was De Palma.
And you know, it's like, I'm not, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not super big into him, per se.
But every time I watch one of his movies, I like them. So I guess I should be.
It's probably bad on my part. But yeah, yeah.
And I absolutely love Carlito's Way. Ever since it came out in the 90s, that's when I started getting big into cinema, like with the Tarantino and the Robert Rodriguez and all those types of directors.
I saw that movie, and I was blown away. I loved it, and I still love it. It's still one of my probably top five movies.
I absolutely love it. So that's why I jumped at the chance when you said you were talking, you were looking for somebody to talk Carlito's Way.
I'm like, ooh, yes. I really want to. Yes. It's one of my favorites. It still is.
Yeah, awesome. And you know, it's funny because I was on Reddit the other day, the De Palma subreddit, which isn't very active, but it is what it is.
Hello to anybody from Reddit that's listening. And somebody asked why De Palma wasn't sort of as well-known as like a Scorsese.
And I think you kind of illustrated it. De Palma's made high-profile films. I mean, Scarface. Everybody knows Scarface.
Yes.
Mission Impossible. He basically launched that franchise. But for whatever reason, I don't know if he just didn't have the sort of desire for attention that other filmmakers have.
Or if it's been so long since he's made a really sort of mainstream film that he's just not in the public consciousness.
But we are getting a reevaluation, which is kind of cool.
And dialing back to Tarantino, you know, my entry point really into taking a serious look at De Palma was via Tarantino.
And him saying, you know, how Blowout's the reason he cast Travolta.
And it's funny. I don't know if you've listened to the Video Archives podcast, which is Quentin and Roger Avery.
They did an American Giallo episode, and it was Dressed to Kill and The Eyes of Laura Mars.
And listening to Tarantino talk about Dressed to Kill is pretty awesome.
So if anybody's listening and you haven't heard that episode, it's the Video Archives podcast.
And I think Tarantino says it's now his favorite, De Palma.
But we'll talk about Dressed to Kill another day.
So Carlito's Way, we talked about on the episode I did with Brian Sword, where we talked about Scarface and Carlito's Way.
We sort of covered the pool room sequence, and we're going to cover that again.
But the scene you picked, and the thing I love about letting my guests pick the scene is when I sat down to watch this,
I didn't remember how great the sequence is because it sort of smashed in between two other amazing sequences.
So we're basically going to be covering the scene where Carlito goes back to his club to get his money out of the safe before he can run off to catch the train station to Miami.
And right before that sequence, we have his sort of final encounter with the Sean Penn lawyer character.
And it leads right into the chase at the train station.
So there's two really big sequences that this is sandwiched in between.
But man, this is a great, great sequence.
And I'm sure you're going to have a lot to say about it.
But I just want to say that in terms of the diplomacy of the scene, we have an amazing sequence where Carlito comes into the club,
and he instantly sees a mob guy that he hasn't seen in, what, 15 years.
15 years.
So he knows something's going on.
Carlito's got an agenda.
He's got a couple hours to get to the train.
But he knows he has to entertain this mob guy, especially knowing why the mob guy is there.
And they sit down, and we cut to a shot that is sort of like, I want to call it like the lazy Susan shot.
You know, like those things you put on your kitchen table that sort of spin.
So like if you have taco night, you know, you can spin it and get all your toppings.
So we basically get the perspective.
The camera is on the ground in between everybody.
And we do a full 360 shot that I want to say goes twice.
And it's very complex because we've got Carlito's voiceover.
But then also the main mob guy is talking.
And when it comes back to him, he's hitting another key point.
I assume that's a shot that jumped out at you.
Yes.
And to me, this whole sequence is one of the most immersive scenes I've ever seen in cinema.
You are in Carlito's skin.
And already he is stressed out because he just saw the Champagne character.
And he pretty much, you know, we're not doing spoilers.
We're doing spoilers.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Okay, all right.
So he just pretty much made sure he was going to get shot because he saw that he,
we heard his internal dialogue when he was in the hospital.
And he said, okay, he was already getting paranoid and not paranoid like in a, like in a, I'm making too much of this way.
No, it's in a, I'm in the moment.
And there's things, there's little things that don't look right.
And it's, I really have to thread the needle here because I got to catch that train.
But at the same time, I have to kind of escape because they're after me.
And he knows it.
And then when he sees that cop, he says, for some reason, like in a hospital, he says, for some reason, that face and that uniform do not match.
And I love that.
I love that line.
And he's so right.
Because what you see after, after he says that, and he leaves Sean Penn character, you see that he is right to be paranoid.
He is right that, that face and that uniform don't match because it's a Tony T's son.
So, so you see that it's not, he's not being paranoid.
He is, you know, they're chasing after him and he only has a few minutes, maybe a half hour to get his money and get on the train.
So we already, we are stressed out because I don't know if you're like me, but if I have to catch a plane, it could be a four in the afternoon.
This, the whole day, it's like, I'm, I'm looking at my, you know, like I can't do anything of value that day before I catch that plane because like, I'm just stressed out that I'm going to, you know, miss it.
So he already, he already has that stress.
Like I can't miss that train because, you know, his, his girlfriend is going to be waiting for him and they're escaping.
And that's, that's, that's his, that's like his escape to, to a better life.
So he has to thread that needle to, to grab that money and get out.
But to, in order to grab that money, he's falling into the trap.
He's, he's falling into like, he, he really should not be going to the club and he probably knows it, but he can't help it because he has to grab that money.
So we, we are totally immersed.
We are him.
We are Carlito.
I'm watching that scene and that's why I picked it.
You are Carlito when you're watching that scene, like you completely forget everything.
And you are, you are him at that point.
And he, he is so nervous and he's acting and it's, but Al Pacino is doing a great job because Al Pacino, of course, is playing Carlito's role.
And Carlito is playing.
He's acting when he sees that, when he sees the, what's his name?
A PD, uh, I'm a death.
So when he sees him, he's like, Oh crap.
Yeah.
He has to become the host.
Yes.
So instantly he knows that's a trap and he's got to get out of there, but he has to act.
Oh, Hey, you know, he's, he's gotta be like the, the, you know, the host.
So Pacino is acting as Carlito and Carlito is acting because, you know, he has to put on a face and he's got to get out of there without running out of there.
He has to make it look like, Hey, you know, nothing's going on.
You know, everything's fine.
But at the same time he has to escape.
And what I love is what we're going to talk about it in a minute, I'm sure.
But the, the waiter, he uses the waiter twice.
That's his escape.
I love that.
I think that's such smart writing.
Oh, absolutely.
And there were a couple of takeaways I had from this sequence.
Have you seen the movie uncut gems with Adam Sandler?
That's the same type of, uh, yes.
Yeah.
And I couldn't help, but think that the safety brothers had to have been using either consciously or unconsciously.
The end of Carlito's way is sort of a template for Adam Sandler's character, because of course, uncut gems is the tension in that movie is cranked up super, super high.
The whole time.
And, but, um, I got that, that vibe from this scene.
And it was the first time I made that connection where I was like, I bet you those guys were thinking about this sequence.
And the other thing I like about it is I know a lot of people have different thoughts about voiceovers in film.
And a lot of people think it's a cheat or, uh, just doesn't work.
I think famously you can talk about like David Lynch's Dune is probably an example of a like bad voiceover because he had so much story to tell that, you know, he just had to do these forced voiceovers.
Uh, but then you got good uses of it.
Like, you know, the Henry Hill character in good fellas.
And I got to say Carlito's way benefits from the voiceover and it's not giving you unnecessary exposition.
It's sort of supplementing what we are seeing on the character's face.
So into his head.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And when you've got an actor like Pacino, who his eyes in this whole movie do so much work, I guess over his career, his eyes do a lot of work.
But then he is nailing that voiceover as well.
That is Carlito Brigante talking.
It's not Al Pacino.
Like that is the character.
He knew that character inside and out.
The rhythm, the inflections of his voice, everything about it.
And that's cinema for me.
And I've, I've talked about before how Brian De Palma doesn't care if you feel like you're watching a movie.
Because we are watching a movie.
So, you know, don't get caught up in the, you know, the reality of it is like, who's his voiceover for?
It doesn't matter.
It's a movie.
It's for us.
It's his thoughts.
We're hearing his thoughts, his internal monologue, which is, which is why we feel like we are him.
Because, you know, like we all have internal monologue when we see a situation and we think of something and, you know, we're not acting.
We, we acting, we're not acting any different, but we see something.
And in our head, we go, okay, this, this is not right over there.
What is that?
And we, we, we're not showing it, you know, physically, but in our head, we have that thought.
And we, the wheels start to spinning and to spin.
And we see Carlito, we see the wheel spinning.
He's, he's sitting, he's sitting there with, you know, talking to those, the P.D. Amodeso and, and the two other guys.
And you see Carlito, he's, he's trying to act like he's listening, you know, he's smiling.
Oh yeah, he's listening to the joke about him dancing and blah, blah, blah.
And I thought he was an Italian.
But at the same time, you see that he has, he's, you see the, you see physically the wheel spinning.
Now that we know what he's thinking and the situation he's in, we see his internal monologue and then we hear it.
So we completely immersed in his character.
We, it's like we becoming him.
It's, it's, you know, it's like the, um, watching a movie.
Sometimes you can become somebody for, for an hour and a half.
And that's, that's for that scene.
I don't know how long it is.
Five, six, seven minutes.
We, I find we become, we completely forget our own selves.
We become him.
And I find that that's De Palma's like trick.
And it's, it's amazing.
Like it's a masterclass.
Absolutely.
So, uh, another sort of unspoken aspect of the scene I wanted to sort of talk about was, so he goes to that little safe in his office and the money's gone.
And the thing I liked about this is how quickly Carlito connects the dots.
And he knows immediately that, uh, I don't know if it's the doorman or the general manager, whoever that guy is.
It's awesome.
Yeah.
He goes directly to him and says, where's the money?
He doesn't beat around the bush.
He pulls out a knife and he's like, listen, you know, we don't have time to do this dance.
Where's the money?
You thought I was dead and you, and you took it.
Exactly.
And that was like, I guess the final bit of confirmation that he needed to know about how dire the situation was that he was in.
And then we see, uh, Tony T's son walk in the club.
Carlito doesn't see it because he's looking for the money at that time.
But for us, like the tension is, is going to another level because now we know, okay, no.
Yeah.
So he is there to kill him, but Carlito doesn't see it.
So we were him a second ago and then all of a sudden we, we coming out of him and we see information that he doesn't have.
So now all of a sudden we're even more scared than he should be.
You know what I'm saying?
Because at that point he wasn't sure.
He's like, okay, they're coming to watch me, whatever.
They're coming to see, you know, if I was on the boat or not.
He said, cause if I were, if they knew I was on the boat, I'd already be dead.
So he's like, he's doing this little dance with, with the other guys.
Like we are pretending that we're just having fun.
Hey, how you been catching up and all that.
And he knows something's fishy.
And then he goes upstairs and we see Tony T's son coming in the club.
So we know it's no longer fishy.
It's official.
Like they, they're coming to kill him, but he doesn't see that.
So the tension for us, like we have information that he doesn't have at that second.
So that makes it even more intense and suspenseful for the audience.
Cause all of a sudden we, we're detached from Carlito and we see that he's,
it really is in grave danger.
Yeah.
And that ties into De Palma's sort of theory on suspense.
You know, and, and he got that from Hitchcock.
It's, you know, either we're going to know something the characters don't as an audience
or the audience isn't going to know something the character knows.
And I think we actually talked about this on Jackrabbit Slims in, in true romance,
when we talked about the differences between the true romance script and the true romance movie,
because Tarantino sequences differently.
So in the movie information that we know in Tarantino script, we don't know.
But so, I mean, that's a discussion for another day, but that's something that De Palma does
very well.
And is sort of from that Hitchcock school where it's like, we're going to give the audience
a piece of information that the character doesn't have.
And that's how we create suspense.
And, you know, Hitchcock was always big on suspense, not surprise.
And De Palma was a master of that.
So I know you talked about the waiter and the waiter is ultimately how Carlito makes his escape.
Do you want to talk about those two instances?
Sure.
Well, at first, he's sitting with those three guys and he realizes he's got to get out of there.
He's got to grab that money and get out of there because he's starting to think that this is fishy.
And he's starting to realize that he's fallen into a trap, you know, because of the need to get that money.
And now he's in the club.
Now he's got to get out.
So the first time around, the waiter just passes by and he goes, hey, get the best, you know, our most expensive champagne on the house, you know.
And that's the distraction he uses to stand up and go get the money.
And the other guy grabs his arm and says, hey, where are you going?
He says, look, I'm a working man.
I got, you know, a few things I got to do.
I'll be right back.
And then P.D. Amadeus doesn't want to make a scene.
He doesn't want to grab him again and sit him down because they're in front of, you know, in the middle of the club.
So I think in a private setting, he would grab him by the arm and sit him down and say, no, no, you're not going anywhere.
But he can't do that because they're in the club.
There's, you know, a bunch of people around having fun.
So he can't make a scene.
So he's letting him walk away.
And the tension goes up again because you're like, OK, get out of there.
Grab that money.
Get out of there.
Go.
Like, it's so suspenseful.
And then he goes get the money.
And all of a sudden, right away, Sasso.
He knows it's Sasso because earlier in the movie, we realized that he knows Sasso is a piece of crap.
He's an opportunist, yeah.
Yes.
And the first chance he would sell him down the river, you know, he's like, he's not.
You can't rely on Sasso.
So he goes, OK, Sasso took the money.
And that's when he goes back.
And I think he sits down after with the three guys again, right?
Yeah.
Because they, yeah.
Or is it?
Or no, no.
He comes back to the table.
And that's when he notices the bottle of champagne is a cheap bottle.
Yes.
Right.
Well, I don't think it is.
Or no.
He uses that as an excuse.
I don't know if you notice.
I just rewatched the scene.
He grabs the towel and he puts the towel over the bottle.
To hide the bottle.
To hide the bottle.
And say, what is this cheap shit?
And it's probably not the cheap shit.
Yeah, yeah.
So he hides the bottle with the towel and goes, ah, that's not what I want.
What are you talking?
And he uses that excuse to escape to the bar.
And it's so smart.
Because all his life, he lived a life of crime where you have to think on your feet.
Where you have to find a way to do this and that and kind of be like a snake and try to slip out of situations like that.
So that's so smart.
And then he goes to the bar.
And we see Tony T's son start to amp up.
Like he's getting, like, so Tony T is the guy that they killed on the boat, that Sean Penn's character killed on the boat.
And we see that Tony T's son cannot act like the other three cannot.
Like, hey, you know, this is, hey, we catching up and, oh, we're telling jokes and everything's fine and we're having fun.
He can't act like that.
You see it in his face.
Yeah.
That actor's acting is, like, remarkable in that movie.
We see just his face that he just, he's seething with anger and he cannot wait to kill Carlito.
And I love that scene where, where Carlito gets under the bar to get the money.
And then it's like, and then there's like this, this moment of like floating, like nothing's going on.
Yeah.
But something is going on.
Yeah.
So it's, it's like the, the suspense is, you would think that nothing's going on.
It's like a dead moment.
It's not because every second that passes, you go, wait, he should have gotten up or not.
Why is he not?
Where is he?
Where is he?
And, and that's where we get out of Carlito.
Now all of a sudden we become 20 T's son.
Yeah.
You know, it's, it's, it's like a shift of a point of view.
It's, it's so, it's so well done.
That scene is incredible.
Yeah.
That whole sequence, again, that last, it's, it's probably the last 30 minutes of the movie
from the point that he has the encounter with Sean Penn's character in the hospital to,
to the end credits starting.
And man, those last 30 minutes are just crazy.
Yeah.
Really, really.
And it's a real time too.
It's real time.
Almost.
Yeah.
Almost, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very good point.
Very good point.
Yeah.
There's no, I don't think there's any time jumps from that point where he enters the club.
Excellent.
Excellent point.
Great sequence.
Great sequence.
I'm so glad you suggested it.
Cause again, it's sandwiched between two other really incredible sequences that you lose
sight of how important that sequence is.
So, uh, yeah, I mean, I'll never get tired of talking Carlito's way again.
I think it's, it's, um, one of the, one of the best movies of the nineties and, uh, is
definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it in a while.
So it, great.
Thank you so much for talking that with me.
And before we wrap up, I wanted to make sure we left some time to talk about your podcast.
And, uh, so do you want to let our listeners know a little bit about it?
Sure.
Uh, and the Venn diagram, like I was saying, I think I said that on Scott's, uh, podcast,
but the Venn diagram of the people that listened to, uh, your podcast and that would be interested
in mine.
I don't think there's a lot of, uh, you know, uh, there's a lot of people in, in, in the
middle of that Venn diagram, but, uh, I have a French, I'm, I was born and raised in France.
I have a French, um, French language beer podcast.
Every week we try a different beer with my cohost.
He's a, he's French also.
And we just started a YouTube channel.
So, uh, I just uploaded our fourth video on YouTube.
So, uh, it's like a, um, companion to, to our podcast.
We, uh, we, I think we're on episode 310.
I want to say, so we've been a lot of beer.
Yes.
Now spread over six, six years now, of course.
Uh, so that, that's what we do every week.
We try a different beer.
And, um, so we are episode 310 and we on our fourth or fifth, uh, YouTube video.
So we do the, um, you know, the beer tasting, we do it on video and then the rest of the podcast,
you can, uh, listen to, uh, like, it's like a companion to the audio podcast.
So if you listen to the podcast, the audio podcast is from the, from the beginning, uh,
until the end.
And the, just the beer tasting portion is also on YouTube.
But, uh, we talk about different things.
Uh, after that we have like our pick of the week, something that we really liked that week.
And we, we have a couple of skits, you know, we, uh, we have fun with that.
So all of that still, uh, in, in the audio podcast, just, uh, the, uh, beer tasting portions on,
on video also on YouTube.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Excellent.
I'll be sure to include, uh, all the relevant links to, uh, where you can find the podcast,
where you can find the YouTube channel.
And I'll say, yeah, yeah.
And I'll link to, uh, your, uh, conversations at Jackrabbit Slim's appearance.
And if I remember to, I'll include, uh, you've been on Scott's show a bunch of times, right?
Yes.
Uh, yeah.
I don't know why he keeps inviting me, but, but I guess, I guess, you know, he's short of,
uh, he's short of people to invite.
Well, no, you know, you know what else I think it is.
Um, and I apologize because I, I missed the 30th anniversary of Pulp Fiction episode that
he recorded.
I, I was supposed to be off work.
And then as the boss, um, you know, shit happens and you can't take off work.
Uh, and I missed it.
So I, I, I apologize profusely to him for that.
But I think the thing is, Pat, you know, when you find people that you are able to talk with,
you know, you're on the same page.
Just, you get people you can depend on.
And I think that's, uh, I'm being cheeky.
Cause he always complained.
He always complains about me that, Oh, here goes Pat.
Yeah.
He's, he can't pick one.
He's good.
He's going to have three or four of them, you know?
So on the last episode I was in, uh, I made the joke at the end.
I say, well, you know, I know this is my last episode with, with you, Scott, you know,
I'm going to miss being on the show, you know?
Oh, that's funny.
Yeah.
He always rags on me.
Yeah.
I love Scott.
I love what he's doing.
He is, man, he's a podcasting beast.
Oh yeah.
He's got a lot of, a lot of, um, he's spinning some plates.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Um, but, uh, yeah, so I'm sure, uh, hopefully we can talk, um, maybe another sequence from
Carlito's way or another De Palma movie at some point, but I, I definitely enjoy talking to
you and it won't be as long between the last time we talked and this time.
I hope not.
But until then, uh, thank you again, Pat.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.